War between the Panda and the NNN

[Hourai_Chimes]

Valten, the thread flatlined long ago

[cauda_draconis]

TBH your tone here is often very rude and in the past has even passed the line to trolling quite a few times. Talk to me in a civilized manner and I will do the same to you.

Burg, i will answer you as full as i can this time. But you should understand, that i will spend about 1.5-2 hours, answering your "small" post. You know, i dont know english very good, and what you could write in 20 minutes i will answer 4 times more. So, next time please do not be offended, if i will not answer post of such size.

You don't actually believe that we are 50 and more people plus probably the same number of "friends" who are all assholes/dumb/whatever? Then you should seriously ask yourself if your perception makes us what you want us to be. I have been always open in the past to reconsider relationships and start anew. Like I did with the people of Roadville, where I admitted our faults and now have at least a decent relationship with their lawspeaker. I wouldn't call him a friend, but we talk from time to time on a rational base.

Of course no, not 50 are. What about ppl i know by forum only - Ewlol and Sarchi are nice guys to chat (could mention Tonky, but she is not from Pande, amiright?). Potjeh is quite nice guy, thought he is mod, and i have hard relationship with mods here. There are also some guys i know in game, sorry, dont want to tell their names. So i think only 25 from you, guys, are assholes (or maybe 26, or maybe 24, there could be some dispersion ^^), and yes, i think my perception is ok.

I could actually see that the same might be possible for you when I look behind your comments. For most of the NNN guys however I am not sure. They are probably not even really dumb, for Arxale I know he isn't, but they refrain to the same blatant lies Koya used to. I mean he still sticks to some of them regarding the devs while Jorb made it clear that Koya is in fact just that: lying. To everyone here and to everyone in the russian community. So, you and others from that community should stop believing some of the people that used to be or still are spokespersons there.

I dont know, why do you mention every time some mystical Koya's propaganda. I never heared it - not to mention, that me and my friends were quite angry on AD in w4. Opinion i have made on you is completely based on your behavior during the second serie of pande's walljump attacks (not assault on Taar, but the one, ended with server crush, whatever made it).

Perhaps, Burg, you think like this: "Hm, they thought i'm asshole, but i'm not asshole, that mean someones propaganda made them think i'm asshole". Perhaps you think: "doing hh politics made me to behave like asshole, but ACTUALLY i'm not asshole". Sorry, i dont care about how honest you in real-life-friendship or how honest are you with your girlfriend. I care only about your behavior in HH, and for the reasons i repeated hundred times, i should say, that you, sir, are asshole. Sad but true.

I kinda have been proven the last days that the same is true for the NNN people. They claim to play fair when all they do is find loopholes on every possible level and then go out and accuse other people back to distract from facts. Cauda, when you really look at it unbiased then you see that these people started playing on this map with a single goal: build a dozen hearthvaults because they are the ultimate abuse of current game mechanics and then bring terror and destruction over the playerbase while trying to justify their actions in a very double-tongued manner. On the one hand claiming this terror and war is all that brings fun for them to the game (I am quoting Arxale here) on the other acting like victims of my town when they are the clear agressors here.

Burg, to be honest, i consider blocking the ram with mineholes as complete abuse. Moreover, if the ram were putted in such a way near Pande - i'm sure, you would come here and cry "those filthy NNN discovered one more loophole". So, you consider by definition that all NNN invents is a loophole, and all you invent is not, cause they are just ballansing the loopholes NNN discovered. You are even do not try to hide it - when i asked you "is summon travel considered as bug" you answered, "yes, perhaps, but how could we assault their vaults withought that trick?". That's the apogee of double standards, i even dont know what to add.

Maybe Cauda, and I am trying to be as reasonable here in my tone as possible, maybe when you consider all these facts again you might understand why from a certain point forward I had to resort to measures that succumbed to the same level of abuse (in your eyes) as their abuse has been. Because I have a huge town with hundreds of manhours invested in it to protect. While they invested half a dozen hours to build an impenetrable vault and threatened my friends and myself with constant charterstone jumping of several towns such as Winterfell etc. All I have been doing since then and all measures I have resorted to were just a defense against unfair attacks that threatened the gameplay and fun for 50, probably 100 people. Ask people like Nao that I am still holding back on the retaliation possibilities. I could all by myself walk in one vault after the other and summon every single one of them, but I am just not that kind of guy. Believe me or not. If I were every single russian leaving a scent would be dead. There are ways to get through walls without all that CS mumbojumbo and I forbid my people to use any of those ways.

I think, Burgi, that you choose the wrong strategy of developement in w5, and now you cant admit that strategy was wrong, so you should make a trick and say, that your opponents play disonest. Actually i could tell you situation - i have my personal vault, and every one of 10 my friends have personal vault. Of course if you set ram near one of them, i will let them live in my for some time - any honest man will do the same. Where you see some buggy plan to disballance the game, i see only mutual aid.

I do not believe, Burg, that you always knowed the way to enter enemies vault and hided it from your friends. I could remember 2 bugraids series Pande made, and your "high morality" not only allowed you to make them, but also allow you to deny it connection to you, and also allowed you to not report it. So, if you know way to enter vaults, perhaps you have discovered that way after the agreement about not using bug, and what prevents you from using that bug is not your "principles", but public opinion.

So you might want to reconsider your very biased opinion about me and Pande. When we sometimes come off as assholes then only because we have been treated very bad by these guys in the past and not on the base of them being better and outsmarting us (they did it a few times and on those I congratulate them and never lied about their successes they had a couple of times). They did mostly cost us some people and our allies sometimes even their towns, because they abuse hvs and abused alot of walljumps and other things in the past. The summon bot (and there is absolutely no doubt it was one) was just the tip of the bullshit iceberg that made people seriously mad here.

Burg some your cries make me very funny. You know nothing, but you think that you know everything. You have made tons of shit for assault, like bricks and wrought, and when your attack failed you made excellent theory: "we worked like mad, and they just invented one more loophole and fucked us, that dishonest". Burg, i could assure you, that day NNN worked not less that you - i could tell that because of their activity in some trade conferences, where i trade too. So they tried to prevent your attack in quite many ways, but when your chain broken in the most thin fragment, you just made hysterics "i hate that fucken bugusers". Another example - i know, that LadyGoo asked everyone she know - "hey, guys, did some of you friends died from pande yesterday?" Pehaps it's also some devil plan to show innocense - but Burg, are you really sure, those d-helmed guys were from NNN? Fuck, you did not care about that at all, you just wanted to use this as one more reason to say "haha, they will never admit their death", disregard of was they guys really from NNN.

"I tired. I go away." Boris Yeltsin, lol.

[Sarchi]

why do you mention every time some mystical Koya's propaganda

I think it may have more to do with the way that the Russian community is kind of distanced from the official forums community. Many Russians seem to have no idea of what is going on in our community and just listen to what they are told, which is the perspective of those on Russian forums. There is quite a bit of misconceptions between both communities, and I don't think there's been much of an honest effort on Russian side to try to bridge the gap.

Other factors playing a role are probably the language banner and maybe bias from the most dominant Russian villages (which tend to be in conflict with English community). Russian noobs listen to what the more experienced players are saying and take their word for it, even if it's false.

That is what I think. I know I am honest enough to say that many things the rus community believes are untrue. For example, I was told by a friend that Russian noobs really believe that Pandemonium/Sodom is out to specifically murder Russian noobs just because they are Russian. For a long time I heard this but never paid much attention to it because I thought it was just an excuse made up by Russians to justify murdering English-speakers for the same reasons, but I trust the word of a friend and now pay more attention.

Another example - i know, that LadyGoo asked everyone she know - "hey, guys, did some of you friends died from pande yesterday?" Pehaps it's also some devil plan to show innocense - but Burg, are you really sure, those d-helmed guys were from NNN? Fuck, you did not care about that at all, you just wanted to use this as one more reason to say "haha, they will never admit their death", disregard of was they guys really from NNN.

It's possible the guy was not from the faction we've been at war with. But you have to understand how we see things through our eyes. A.D. (koya's group) had a habit of constantly lying to us and lying about their deaths. As a result my group (and most of the English speakers) don't trust Russians too much, aside from those who we are familiar with. Many of our Russian friends don't trust the Russian community either, for same reasons...

Also when we kill a person with high quality dragon helm, thanes, soldier sword, etc, we have a hard time believing that the two aren't related, although we know there are probably multiple well-off Russian factions, some of them we are not at war with. The guy was definitely Russian, and with our inherent distrust of Russians and the coincidence of good gear and killing a well-statted character, it's hard for us to believe that it may not be them.

[Tonkyhonk]

i shouldnt steal the privilege of replying to those, so let me just say one thing as someone NOT from Pande, cauda.

most everyone(some exceptions too) is nice when you talk in person, but burg is particularly one of the nicest bunch ive met on this game. i only knew him on forums till pretty recently and had a bit different impression before, so i cannot of course say i know him well. but still, from his modest and humble replies and all that i've gotten to know, i can easily see why devs love him, how he can gather so many "different"(not just nationalities) people in his faction and keep them to run it for long. and he is acting like an asshole to reply back to some posts "on purpose", i think.
(though i know some russian players say the same about Koya, no matter what i or others think or say or experienced.)

*edit*
↓ sorry, guys

[Onionfighter]

I stopped reading this thread about 50 pages back. Apparently, it's still the same old shit.

Edit: Wait, make that 70 pages.

[Valten21]

Almost blew my cover... did you skip over all of the 3-4 pages of raid stuff?

[Onionfighter]

Almost blew my cover... did you skip over all of the 3-4 pages of raid stuff?

Yeah, and it was interesting. But the general back and forth that has been going on in this and in past threads has probably gone on for over a year by now. At least it seems to be just in this thread right now.

[ewlol]

Hello everyone. I do not play Haven and Hearth anymore, but I want to say something (that is think is important...) regarding this entire matter.

I, for one, have a deep respect for Pandemonium and view it as almost one of my "virtual children". I will always be there to defend my town and baby, but this post is more about the general picture.

I think this game is taking a wrong direction. I say this because I think the game is manifesting itself in a way that ventures far from its intended purpose. I believe this game was made to inspire creativity, community, passion, danger, excitement, risk, visceral emotions that reach into our hearts and pull us in deeper and deeper. Unfortunately the barbaric tentacles of the game and its community have constricted and reversed its growth. We all are at fault, especially Pandemonium and the major "factions" of the game who have turned it into a complex competition of numbers and politics. We have embedded our insatiable thirst for glory so far into this game that it blinds us and inhibits the general success of the game. We have even manipulated everything to create a game--yes we are new creating our own game, not Jorb's and Loftar's--that is directed towards beating our opponents. We create clients, and graphic mods that are so unbelievably far away from the marvels of the original. We have radars, nightvision, bots, a myriad of different functions so that we can beat others and make the game "easier" (whatever that means).

Now, what I mean by this, is the abuse of bugs and broken mechanics to beat out our in-game opponents. We are so remarkably driven to defeat, and not just defeat, but humiliate and defame and crush our enemies that we will sacrifice the integrity of ourselves and the game to achieve this goal. The "war" between Pandemonium and the NNN is a perfect example of failure. Failure to preserve the game and failure to preserve our own integrity. We are all to blame for this. Pandemonium, the NNN, AD, all other major factions etc. I think we are unable now to look at this game and find humor and all of the other things I listed. Instead we find angst, hate (I hesitate to use that word) and other many negative emotions that really shouldn't be there. It must just be human nature to compete and be the biggest, baddest, most productive in the world. I just don't know. I have so much more to say, but just don't know how to say it.

I made this post because I am worried for us. I am worried for us, and the game, and Jorb and Loftar's unique project that has been neglected and left awry.

[Ravian]

I completely agree, if only there were a way to stop all this stupid stuff going on

[burgingham]

Guess we just have to disagree on some topics, Cauda. At least I know the two persons mattering most in this game agree with me on what is intended and what is abuse. People sitting in vault clearly belong to the latter group. There is no effort in building and defending a vault despite how you want to make it look. If building a network of them is the prefered strategy this world (and I agree it is superior to building a big town right now) then game mechanics are broken. I only use bugs when I have no other means to defend myself. I only use them in reaction, never as action. I asked a couple of times now for NNN to just leave us alone, bothing would make the aevrage Panda happier than to live in peace on his farm and grind the fuck out of quality. That you cannot see who is the agressor here working with unfair methods is probably where our differences have their root, so there is not much sense in discussing any further if you cannot admit or see that this is wrong behaviour thatthe game makers would like to see banished too (and to think they have their opinion because of what I am telling them is a very stupid fairy tale, but you know that yourself).

@Ewlol, some of what you say is very true. This could all be discussed in alot of detail how HnH probably affects people playing it alot more than any other game. Which is connected to the original intention of the game: For players to be able to make lasting differences, to make decisions that actually matter. Because of this and by the nature of the game that things which matter are very tedious to make there starts to be a very intense emotional involvment to your in game possessions. Of course you will defend and later grief about such possessions a lot more than in other games. I am also positive that the social bonds are alot more intense than in most other games. Since you do not just team up to slay the goblin king over and over again till everyone has his mighty dragon sword. You create something together, you make it great, you bring it to a constant life and try to keep it in a constant growthand in the end you die for it together. In general this makes for a very intense and unique gaming experiences, on the other hand it probably fosters some of the effects you mention too.

@kohq: Not that I don't acknowledge Mourinhos achievements, but I attest Trap to have alot more character