LP Concerns

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Lp debate

Postby bmjclark » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:22 pm

jorb wrote: There are admittedly many variables to that equation -- siege being one of them -- but I don't like it when people aren't being the least bit concerned about how they behave.

I'd like it if the characters required at least some investment of actual time spent playing. If people are more concerned about their helmets and rings than about their characters then I think something is wrong.


I think it more comes back to the fact that you can't siege a vault ever like potjeh said. There really is no consequences if you leave scents. I think it's a real problem when there is literally no point tracking to a HF. Only time i do it is after we've killed some one and i want to know where they were from ;) .

People can track you online but it would seem people are gonna release an autohearthing script soon to make that completely impossible. And if you do battle the uphill fight to kill a player in a vault / tracking him online, it still doesn't matter so much cause they have 5 combat alts to fall back on. The ease of raising alts is for sure a part of it, but it's a small part of it compared to the siege system (and fast travel system if someone releases an autohearth) imo :).

Bit disorganized, just woke up ;). Look forward to seeing these new systems you have planned =)
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Re: Lp debate

Postby jorb » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:33 pm

Potjeh wrote:Well if we agree, you should put that character development overhaul on the backburner until you've fixed siege. Personally I think that all the issues are to blame on vaults, but I guess I could be wrong and the LP system needs yet another overhaul. Thing is, you can't make any meaningful observations with vaults around, as they break just about everything in the game. I mean, even if we were back to old LP grinding character death still wouldn't mean much when you can't locate and destroy the enemy's base.


Well, in terms of development priorities I think I've stated elsewhere that the problem presently is that loftar, right before we got to work on Salem, had redesigned the object system to a much more flexible model, which Salem now uses. The problem unfortunately being that this requires a reimplementation of all the stuff we've put into Haven. Since we have to do that anyway, we would like to take the opportunity to basically rebuild the game and try to flush out a lot of the cruft that we have accrued. Mind you, the main goal point that we'll be building towards is and will remain the siege system. It is obviously the single biggest problem right now.

Some other things that I'd like to get rid of:

Change the hunger model to eliminate meaningless plowing for more hunger and (thus) make feasting more important.
Rework/remove/change the personal beliefs, especially change/tradition.
Rework/remove/change the fast travel system to remove the janky gameplay that crossroads & hearthing presently imply, foraging bots by means of infinite wilderness spawns, for example.
Better system for gate access. Remove keys in their present implementation.
There is also not a single industry that I wouldn't want to do at least something about, but farming might deserve a special mention. Generally speaking I'd like it if there was a bigger element of choice and player skill involved in the actual crafting.
Rework the quality fields and the finding of them to disincentivize the present retarded pclaims that I see everywhere, and the spawning of alts to look for resources.

Regarding the siege system the holy grail right now is to introduce defense in depth and reduce the reliance on and importance of shell defense.

In that mix we have also begun formulating an idea for a new take on character development. It does not involve going back to meaningless LP grind, nor does it involve removing the curiosities or in any way changing the fundamentals of how those work (we're generally speaking very happy about them), but rather it is -- or may very well become, at least -- a synthesis of a lot of the half-baked ideas we've been playing around with but never done anything with. The aim of that system is to make the world a magical place that cannot be easily reduced to its component mechanics. This, or so is the thought, without removing the ability of players to act teleologically in it. A concept that we've been talking a lot about in that context is the doors of perception.

... a pet peeve of mine is that I would also like to introduce seasons while we're at it, but loftar keeps arguing against it. :)

So... yeah... :)

Idk. I can assure you that the game is in no way, shape or form abandoned. We have even done some cursory work on it, but fruition is obviously a long ways away.
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Re: Lp debate

Postby Jackard » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:15 pm

jorb wrote:... a pet peeve of mine is that I would also like to introduce seasons while we're at it, but loftar keeps arguing against it. :)

Was his reasoning against it something technical or a gameplay issue? If it was the "winter killing off newbies" scenario, all you need is for seasons to differently affect easily identifiable regions
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Re: Lp debate

Postby jorb » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:19 pm

Jackard wrote:
jorb wrote:... a pet peeve of mine is that I would also like to introduce seasons while we're at it, but loftar keeps arguing against it. :)

Was his reasoning against it something technical or a gameplay issue? If it was the "winter killing off newbies" scenario, all you need is for seasons to differently affect easily identifiable regions


I think he was more protesting the demands it'd put on the graphical resources and/or implementation time in terms of fall and winter variants and whatnot.
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Re: LP Concerns

Postby Jackard » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:32 pm

Depends on how much detail you want to put into it. You could go with something as simple as storms that have a rain overlay and a snow overlay, no graphical changes to the terrain itself.
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Re: Lp debate

Postby Oddity » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:41 pm

jorb wrote:Rework/remove/change the fast travel system to remove the janky gameplay that crossroads & hearthing presently imply, foraging bots by means of infinite wilderness spawns, for example.

What does "infinite wilderness spawns" mean?
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Re: LP Concerns

Postby Kaios » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:42 pm

Destroy hearth, log out, spawn to wilderness, repeat until full inventory and port back to village
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Re: Lp debate

Postby painhertz » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:03 pm

jorb wrote:
Potjeh wrote:Well if we agree, you should put that character development overhaul on the backburner until you've fixed siege. Personally I think that all the issues are to blame on vaults, but I guess I could be wrong and the LP system needs yet another overhaul. Thing is, you can't make any meaningful observations with vaults around, as they break just about everything in the game. I mean, even if we were back to old LP grinding character death still wouldn't mean much when you can't locate and destroy the enemy's base.


Well, in terms of development priorities I think I've stated elsewhere that the problem presently is that loftar, right before we got to work on Salem, had redesigned the object system to a much more flexible model, which Salem now uses. The problem unfortunately being that this requires a reimplementation of all the stuff we've put into Haven. Since we have to do that anyway, we would like to take the opportunity to basically rebuild the game and try to flush out a lot of the cruft that we have accrued. Mind you, the main goal point that we'll be building towards is and will remain the siege system. It is obviously the single biggest problem right now.

Some other things that I'd like to get rid of:

Change the hunger model to eliminate meaningless plowing for more hunger and (thus) make feasting more important.
Rework/remove/change the personal beliefs, especially change/tradition.
Rework/remove/change the fast travel system to remove the janky gameplay that crossroads & hearthing presently imply, foraging bots by means of infinite wilderness spawns, for example.
Better system for gate access. Remove keys in their present implementation.
There is also not a single industry that I wouldn't want to do at least something about, but farming might deserve a special mention. Generally speaking I'd like it if there was a bigger element of choice and player skill involved in the actual crafting.
Rework the quality fields and the finding of them to disincentivize the present retarded pclaims that I see everywhere, and the spawning of alts to look for resources.

Regarding the siege system the holy grail right now is to introduce defense in depth and reduce the reliance on and importance of shell defense.

In that mix we have also begun formulating an idea for a new take on character development. It does not involve going back to meaningless LP grind, nor does it involve removing the curiosities or in any way changing the fundamentals of how those work (we're generally speaking very happy about them), but rather it is -- or may very well become, at least -- a synthesis of a lot of the half-baked ideas we've been playing around with but never done anything with. The aim of that system is to make the world a magical place that cannot be easily reduced to its component mechanics. This, or so is the thought, without removing the ability of players to act teleologically in it. A concept that we've been talking a lot about in that context is the doors of perception.

... a pet peeve of mine is that I would also like to introduce seasons while we're at it, but loftar keeps arguing against it. :)

So... yeah... :)

Idk. I can assure you that the game is in no way, shape or form abandoned. We have even done some cursory work on it, but fruition is obviously a long ways away.


This post puts to rest a lot of the fears people have had lately r.e. Devs abandoning the game. it's amazing that despite a clear warning by you guys when Salem development started, people still think that you'll somehow pull Haven updates out of your asses and start screaming "abandoned!". Now give us an update on Salem development!!! :P

Edit: I'd STILL love to see more ambient sound added to the game...water splashing while boating, bears roaring etc etc etc. Seem like stuff like that would be simple to implament?
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Re: Lp debate

Postby MagicManICT » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:31 am

painhertz wrote: Edit: I'd STILL love to see more ambient sound added to the game...water splashing while boating, bears roaring etc etc etc. Seem like stuff like that would be simple to implament?


Implement, sure. Create?... well :)
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Re: Lp debate

Postby jordancoles » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:32 am

MagicManICT wrote:
painhertz wrote: Edit: I'd STILL love to see more ambient sound added to the game...water splashing while boating, bears roaring etc etc etc. Seem like stuff like that would be simple to implament?


Implement, sure. Create?... well :)

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