Arrow quality affecting aim speed.

[DanteThanatos]

Remove the arrow quality capping the speed of the bow speed.
This is obviously not the case with slings and I'll leave them out. I'll henceforth only speak of Bows.

There is some caps that archers have to face:

Perc x Agi to deal damage: I'm fine with it.
Bow quality: For damage and aiming speed, I'm fine with it.
Marksmanship: I'm completely ok with it.
Ranger Bow: Need steel nuggets, dunno why but I'm ok with it. Its a nice limitation, only a few would be able to craft or buy a high q one.

But Arrows?
There are very clear limitations with stone and bone arrows.
Highq Stone availability. Nuff said about stone.
They cap Aim speed for some reason.
The only way to get good arrows are killing bears and even trolls(!!!), and even then they are capped with branch quality.
Only the speed matters and even with q400 chickens(holy shit) It would still be softcapped by tree,water,clay quality trio for better branches.
Getting high quality arrows dont even add much to the damage. q90 Rbow deals 900 base damage,q90 arrows ads 60 damage to it.

Fighters aren't capped that way. Every point they have counts and they can get better unshackled by resources.

Archers out there: Have you never said to yourselves:
"There, now that I have x Marksmanship I can't get better untill I get a better bow/bones". That's absurd.

I don't want a damage buff. I know decent quality steel plates makes arrows just brush to the side.
Only a few will have a highq Wbow/Rbow, let at least that be the archers's cap not the arrows.

Is there a way for Bow and Arrow to only softcap speed?
That way every point would definitely count. It would be awesome!

Thank you for reading this loooong wall of text.

tl;dr version: Archers are limited by resources while fighters are not.

[Arcanist]

Well not every point counts for fighters.. If you have 1 agj higher than your opponent you get 20% faster attacks, UA does not affect damage.

I disagree that if someone grinds to 2000mm then they should have half a second load speed for rbow on a running target.

What you're suggesting would make archers way too overpowered, since that 2000mm archer could take down an army, while running away from said army.

[DanteThanatos]

They would be powerfull on that I agree, but 2000mm is no easy task(at least not a fast one).
There are some other limitations archers face:

Bows are Two-handed > So you cant even bring Tsacks effectively, why would you need them? B12 are twohanded too but you can still punch someone and deal damage(Armor penetration, something archers have been asking for while)if you bring tsacks.
Quiver equipment slot is the backpack one > There goes more inventory space
Ammo ends.

How many B12 someone has to carry? One.
How many arrows an archer has to carry? If the answer is more than 40 you already lost another bucket of water because Quiver's are 1x2.

Quoting Xcom

Re: Ranged Combat
Post by Xcom » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:55 am

We ran some numbers on how many times you needed to land a "perfect hit" with someone with best armor vs best Rbows and arrows. Q200 CC and Q150 on other armors vs 110 Rbow and 160 arrows. Taking into account the armor dmg done per hit and assuming every single shot needed to land max damage you could kill someone with 30 perfect hits. That is 30 hits at maximum damage to even start doing dmg to the player. Its about the amount of ranged hits you need to land on someone before there armor breaks down letting some damage bleed through.

Its all theory crafting but you could theoretically kill anyone with 35 Rbows shooting the same target at the same time. You need to also take into account that most people wont stick around if they survive the first hit so you would literally need to Alpha him down. Problems with all this is that most people running around with good armor all have good agility. Your 35 Rbow gang would basically need double the agi of your target to even be able to max dmg on every single shot. Its easier to pump AGI then PER and more useful making this even harder.

Then you also have the problem of aiming speed. Rbows are to slow to aim with to even guarantee that 35 would land a hit. So assuming that you would need more then 35 rangers shooting to make sure at least 35 hits would happen. Assuming your target would stand still for the Rbows to start gaining aiming speed you would need a very long time to get 80-90% aim so majority of hits would happen. Q110 is way to low for that, maybe end of W6 when we had Q180 Rbows around as those Rbows at least could aim with decent speeds compared to the sluggish Q110 ones.

Then you have gang mentality. Noone would stand still if they saw a 40 Rbow gang. Or if one of them got Alphad down. Plus the fact that a rangers attack bar goes to 0 after he shoots and that any combat move prevents continues aiming. You could lift a boat hiding your bow but if 40 people showed up and started to shoot you you would be an idiot if you stuck around or stood still.

In short. Ranged weapons are good for non-armred targets or AFKers. Maybe its useful if you use 5-10 rangers to shoot the characters using the ramer outside your walls during the siege.

So...if Xcom is correct it would take 35 Perfect hits on a single Guy of the army for him to go down. There goes ONE QUIVER.
Archers have 4x5 Inventory space thats 4 buckets and a water flask with 4 slots 4x1 left. Thats pretty tight.

And on a place like the Hearthlands that "Those who bring more water wins" is the truth, archers are pretty much handicapped already.

[AnnaC]

tl;dr version: Archers are limited by resources while fighters are not.

Fighters are limited with their resources as well. Also, fighters are limited by things that don't affect archers, the big point being walls, obstacles, and terrain (not too mention they have to deal with the target's defense weight as well). Archers have no restrictions in that regard, and can potentially inflict a death shot without even initiating combat with their target or being in their visual range (in practice not likely if the target has armor of course, but that's the point).

That being said, I do agree that arrow quality affecting IEMM is unnecessarily tedious, especially with the poor handling of quivers (you can't inspect arrows in a quiver until you notice a slow-as-hell aim-bar).

But ranged combat is a shitty placeholder mechanic, and as I said before since it doesn't take into account defensive weight, has theoretically infinite distance, doesn't aggro until the shot is fired, and doesn't consider line of sight or obstacles (all which are things hand-to-hand combatants have to deal with), ranged combat shouldn't have any serious business in PvP right now. The niche it has right now of harassment and picking off unarmoured and weak opponents is a fitting support role for it.

Edit: consider that even in villages with brick walls and farming characters that never expect to leave the village ever, still generally need to be outfitted with plate armor most of the time.

[Tonkyhonk]

ranged was op and got nerfed after the battle of BHB in w3, i think.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12958
youd prolly need more than that to convince devs.

looking back at it, its hard to believe this is the same forum...

[DanteThanatos]

AnnaC:

1 - I agree with the perks of archery over melee fighters.
2 - Harassment and picking off weak/unnarmored oponets, I'm tottaly ok with that role. I don't wish for archers to be too powerfull either.
3 - And I'm glad you agree with my point in the topic. Arrow quality affecting aim speed is just plain wrong both irl and ingame.

ranged was op and got nerfed after the battle of BHB in w3, i think.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12958
youd prolly need more than that to convince devs.

looking back at it, its hard to believe this is the same forum...

Ooooh nice topic *reading*
Btw, I'm not asking to make bows and arrows more powerfull as in to deal more damage.
I'm just suggesting taking away the arrow IEMM as is with stones and slings.
Making them potentially faster but still capped by bow and mm.

[dagrimreefah]

Arrow quality affecting aim speed is just plain wrong both irl and ingame.

Oh god the real-life argument again.........

I don't see how its unrealistic at all "IRL". If I try to shoot with a low quality, crooked, shitty arrow, no matter how good my bow is, the arrow isn't going to fly straight and true, meaning I'm going to have to spend a longer time aiming to compensate. Have you ever even shot a bow and arrow IRL?

[borka]

Well said Grim ! - now we have to tell why we can't have Carbon in HnH


Interesting to watch at YT
wildernessoutfitters
Lars Andersen
Greyarcher1 .

[DanteThanatos]

Oh god the real-life argument again.........

Oh god the anti-real-life argument again

On that point I have to agree with you. I was prepping a whole argument about bear and boar bones not beign different but I couldn't find the words.
I just dont think a good archer(High MM) should be hardcapped because his arrows are made out of fox bones even with the highest quality tree branches and his skill as a fletcher.