Dynamic Guild Professions

[LadyV]

I know Guilds have been discussed before but never in any real detail, that I've found, or how they would impact the game. Here is my thoughts on their additions and ways to hopefully make the game more fun and longer lasting.

One of the greatest issues I have with Haven is lack of depth and the ease of mastering skills that should take much longer. About a month in you have steel plate, swords, merchant robes, dragon helms... This is a serious issue. If you can make everything so early from then on out its just a matter of staying ahead of material quality and the grind begins.

I suggest we add a loose guild status system that both maintains long term game play and rewards true progress, not forced feeding or rushing. Sample titles would be Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, and Grand Master. Each level of status would be its own skill set, rewards, and requirements.

At Apprentice level, whatever the crafting skill, you would be able to access the basics only. If you were a metal worker or smith this opens anvils, scythes, metal cauldrons...Leather workers would be able to make slings, leather clothes...Cooks would learn the basics of roasting meats, grinding flour, and simple assembly of items like breads... Miners may be only able to mine level one.

At Journeyman level you might move up to making things like bronze weapons and armor, leather armors, more food crafting.. Also at this level you can not exceed base item quality. This limits rushing and rewards the next step. Miners would be only able to mine levels one through three.

At Master level you now have spent your time learning your skills so you can begin to make higher level items such as steal weapons and armor, the cutthroat curaiss, higher level foods... This would also be the level at which can exceed item quality such as with anvils or other tools. Miners could mine levels one through four.

At Grand Master level you have mastered your skill to a point you can know add your own touches to items. Maybe swords are extra sharp and can deal more damage such as historic Damascus steel or your armors are so well fashioned they increase defence slightly. Your foods may give bonus FEP's... Whatever the bonus its a well deserved one at making it to this level. Miners can now mine all levels.

Combined with these levels of progression should be a system that that binds ability as well as skill in an area. So in the case of advanced armor making you may need a certain level of strength to forge metal, dexterity to meet the rythm needed for production, constitution to endure the process... Setting physical limits to each level then requires much more effort to achieve a level.

Each guild level should open its own new set of a skill tree and items it can produce and only once these levels are achieved. This creates long term game play, goals to achieve, and makes character development more an issue than rushing to just get a skill and it all be open to make. For example the steel making skill can only be unlocked once reaching Master level.

These level requirements should not be easy task to achieve. We know people will try and rush or force feed specialists to get there faster so the Developers must set the bar higher as each level goes. As it is a month in and you have high level items being produced. This needs to be curtailed else we only get the rage wars of conflict that taper down to huge player base drop out because they burned through it all so fast.


Well this is my attempt at a new balance. What does everyone else think?

[Holya]

I don't understand exactly what you'd be trying to achieve with this.
In my opinion, all it would serve to do is make it harder for hermits to progress/force them to have several more characters, rather than the usual farmer, crafter, forager and usually warrior.
Plus, why limit somebody's character and progression in such a way that they may not be a blacksmith and a chef?

My crafter has high enough stats to cook everything my village can produce, farm everything but carrots, do all of the sewing/psy related crafting, enough carp to cut all of our boards, enough surv to butcher/sheer/whatever.
Implementing this would mean, I'd have to either have to make one character for each of the above jobs, or simply be stuck doing one thing day in and day out. In my village, I'm only suppose to be a farmer/crafter, but if I didn't have my other skills to help my friends with their role occasionally, we certainly wouldn't be as far ahead as we are.

[Chakravanti]

If you raise the bar to requirements for high end play, you only serve to make it more difficult for new players to join the game. In your mind it sounds like making good stuff more difficult to achieve would reduce the number of people achieving that and thus reduce the threat of high level players abusing newbies.

In reality, you do not understand this game. The true effect raising the bar to high end play has, is to further insulate those who achieve it from everyone who has not. Whichever way you dice it, every player who crosses the bar makes it harder for everyone who has not. If you reduce competeing true threats and extend the time they have to put down up an comers before they become a threat by crossing said bar, you will see that the 'threat' to newbies is not reduced. SImply the investment they need to provide will be increased and sit at risk of complete loss for a longer duration.

The *problem* is that H&H is more of an MMORTS than an MMORPG but the designers would like its final incarnation to be an MMORPG. They've repeatedly devised unique solutions to the concept of 'personal development' in both Salem and H&H. The redirection of play from RTS to RPG will likely happen with diversity of investment options that further lock a charecter into certain roles of play and out of other via mutually increased expense of development along specialized paths and achoring of said skill to constructions in game.

The quality cycle is the *source* of the RPG element of H&H. Without it, it owuld be *exclusively* an RTS.

This needs to be curtailed else we only get the rage wars of conflict that taper down to huge player base drop out because they burned through it all so fast.

You're not the first whose prophecy of exodus and apocolypse has preceded what has only ever been a stable value or rapidly increasing population. Such that we experience the only thing that has truly caused players to quit playing en masse: lag.

[LadyV]

@Holya

Which are you arguing for? Hermit or village? You speak of both and seem to only address my point. A single person being feed and relegated to production in a village. In short in a months span you have exhausted the game skill tree. You are now just grinding to improve quality. This does not limit hermits at all. It sets requirements for all.

@Chakravanti

I think I do have a good grasp of the game. I have played it for some worlds now and done most of the skills. I've been a hermit and lived village life.

To answer your first point yes newer players will be behind if they did not start at world creation. This is true even now. It's not a bad thing at all. More advanced players tend to sell their products and services anyway which usually get lesser advanced players things they would not normally have sooner. So I fail to see your point.

I do agree Haven is more RTS. It has few RPG elements beyond setting. Im not sure why you bring up the quality cycle as you have but quality is a RTS element as well. Bigger and better is a theme in most games.

As for my statement of player base drop off, it's not a prophecy. It's fact. When you start with over 1000 players and in a couple months your down to a few hundred you've lost people and you should ask why. The one I always hear is they get bored because they have done the skills, there is nothing else to do. Read the forums. It's full of such complaints. Read suggestions. It's full of people wanting more.

Im not saying my suggestions are perfect but they do address what I see and hear all the time. The game needs depth and longer lasting appeal. As I suggested one of the ways to do that is to make skills first of all take longer to master and secondly expand the skill tree. At the same time it has to be balanced so a village can not force feed a super crafter to do it all in a months time.

If you have a alternative or modification please tell me. Im working with what we have to go on.

[Tonkyhonk]

in short, i want more freedom than preset status like you suggested.
i do agree that village system should have more depth but not exactly to the direction you are leading to.
there should be some kind of grades for villagers status (more than just ls, chief, herdsman) to allow certain privileges or different permissions to different areas inside village that do not interfere pclaim, or more like village-to-village relationships to make bigger town system as jackard suggested long ago.
i think village system in haven was not meant to be complete as it is now and im sure devs do have their own vague ideas to deepen the system, but implementation would be AFTER they get their base re-coding -hafen- done anyways. its probably better we wait for now than trying to flood them with too many ideas because it may kill their creative thoughts.

Beanieman > I think a sad truth here is that suggesting something good and concrete makes that very thing less likely to happen

[LadyV]

in short, i want more freedom than preset status like you suggested.
i do agree that village system should have more depth but not exactly to the direction you are leading to.
there should be some kind of grades for villagers status (more than just ls, chief, herdsman) to allow certain privileges or different permissions to different areas inside village that do not interfere pclaim, or more like village-to-village relationships to make bigger town system as jackard suggested long ago.
i think village system in haven was not meant to be complete as it is now and im sure devs do have their own vague ideas to deepen the system, but implementation would be AFTER they get their base re-coding -hafen- done anyways. its probably better we wait for now than trying to flood them with too many ideas because it may kill their creative thoughts.

Beanieman > I think a sad truth here is that suggesting something good and concrete makes that very thing less likely to happen

I do agree villages need more options. I seem to recall TeckXKnight had an excellent thread on it some time back. I don't think I saw Jackard's.

[MrFreed]

If you raise the bar to requirements for high end play, you only serve to make it more difficult for new players to join the game.

Everything this guy said, I agree with.
insulating it would only drive a deeper wedge and really force players to quit early on, especialy with how brutal many players are already the combat system isnt very easy to learn nor is getting PvP ready easy as is, making weapons and armor even harder to get would just cause the Player Killers to dominate the game completely at least now hermits can eventually build up to it but to enforce guilds would polarize play. Its either join a guild/faction or be murdered wearing your crap non Master rank Guild gear.

But a do think a non-restrictive guild function would add a new depth to the game could add Mead Halls and such =D

[LadyV]

@MrFreed

I'm not speaking of actual guilds you join.

Im suggesting a sort of level system with requirements in order to progress to more advanced crafting. You don't just start making steel items simply because you understand the basics of making steel it requires time to learn things. It makes sense that you start metal working simpler things and work you way up. Its a bit silly anyone can buy steel making and suddenly have the ability to craft plate and swords with no prerequisite experience. My example show you begin learning metal working on simple things like plows and scythes. As you then learn more you start stretching your skills in include armors and so forth. The system would affect all in the game equally.

There would be advantages for those who have played longer since they have had more time to develop but that's fine. Your the one joining later and you must accomplish just like they have. It would be unfair to bring them down to your level simply because your new. If I began on day one of the world and you on day 180 I should have an edge. I see no reason to change that.

As for it harming people I actually think it will help. If it take raiders longer to get to good weapons and armor that's a more competitive system early on. No steel plates to deflect missle weapons. Earliest armors would be leather. If your going to fight its going to hurt. Pali bashing will be pushed back a ways to give more time for people to develop since sledgehammers are not being made early.

In my eyes it it balances things a bit more fairly.

[MrFreed]

Then why not just divi skills into more skills and have prequirements based on like smithing 50+
as well it would give player killers the edge because they have already crafted said gear before the wall would be thrown up xP it would just make it harder for new ppl to become player killers

[synntax33]

Post by MrFreed » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:03 pm

Then why not just divi skills into more skills and have prequirements based on like smithing 50+
as well it would give player killers the edge because they have already crafted said gear before the wall would be thrown up xP it would just make it harder for new ppl to become player killers

Trade still affects what could be had. Raiders dont have to be part of villages, they just get enough pearls.