" Willpower " as an Update to Claims

[Vaku]

What we understand about claims in HnH is that they are squares.
They grow outward from objects at ratios of 1:5. They appear around objects at dimensions of 101x101, 65x65, or lesser 45x45 variants. They come in two varieties: Village and Personal, but what if they came in many?

What if claims could be shaped closer to the will of the player, while still existing as a fun and intuitive game mechanic?

Introducing "Willpower," a mechanic that governs ownership over objects, livestock, swathes of land, or even groups of people. Your Willpower decides what constitutes a crime. Willpower decides how passive game systems, like scents, are formed by illegal actions. If you ever found some "crimes" in the current system admissible, but others not? Willpower allows you to modify these rules. Willpower is the virtually unlimited potential of your hearthling that can be only countered by the Willpower of others, yet is at the same time empowered by others.

At its height, Willpower is a completely dynamic social tool, used to enrich your gaming experience in this sandbox environment.

Without further ado, I'll introduce you to the mechanics of Willpower:

.00 AT CHARACTER CREATION
All characters possess the complete amount of Will they are ennobled with at birth. They are in and of themselves, completely sovereign beings. Using your character, you do what you want, when you want. Only by promising your Will to others, will you ever "lose" it; and only without the skills, can you not do what you want to other players.

The basic tools you control with your Willpower—

Emanating Personal Claim: What you own is what you can reach. If you've mixed in your labor, why shouldn't it be yours? Your claim extends from objects of your own creation. If you find it time to settle down, create your habitat. Your claim will extend from this object. If that is not sufficient, stake your claim with markings in certain areas to control its growth.



You've developed a brand, start branding your livestock, they will contribute to your growing claim, not to mention, be in and of themselves claimed by you. Plow the land and this growing acreage of yours. The idea for an emanating personal claim is for the claim to grow organically, from activity completed on the claim by the owner. No need for spending LP, Silver or other things to grow the claim into one large square. Plus!, there's absolutely nothing that can halt your claim, except perhaps your mortal coil?



That is correct, your personal claim is not bound by an arbitrary distance of 5 meters to another's; both claims can enter contested space, and it is up to you and the other to solve the dispute, lest your hubris send you to the grave. With great Willpower comes great responsibility, and you must treat others how you wish to be treated, or be a hypocrite.... Or perhaps the growing danger of another will push you to seek out a group to ensure your survival.

Criminal Acts: What you can and cannot do, and what you allow others to do to you, are all decided by interacting with the familiar criminal system in HnH. Imagine merely interacting with a Personal Belief slider for criminal actions. Slowly work over to the level of "Hypocrite" and killing others on your property will not be so easily tracked as when killed in the victim's home—perhaps to the degree that you can kill a criminal on your property without worry of being summoned.



There is no crime in self defense, is there? You decide these by interacting with your beliefs on Criminal Acts.

Indomitable Willpower: Were you worried that a group of ten or more could thwart your Willpower to keep your own property? Don't be, as others must either give you liberty or give you death. There is no way to minimize your Will and claim over lands without your own consent, but what's to stop them from killing you and taking your land? For that sort of protection, you may want to find some friends.

.01 WITH THE APPROPRIATE SKILLS
You may at later stages, with the right skills, relinquish portions of your Will to create a group. Tired of the name "Village?" Call it what you like, a "Family," a "Posse," a "Nation," a "Tribe," or a "Rebellion." You are not bound by your location, a stake in the ground, or a simple banner. Instead, you are bound by the willpower you've promised to the group. How many freedoms, the types, and the ways to change them, are all decided at the beginning of the group's creation.

Decide the theme of the group with custom input—

(Ideally this would all be covered up as invisible code behind an easy to understand GUI or more railroaded customization, but similarly dynamic mechanics—because text-wall games are not very pretty.)

Code: Select all

Name:
Oath:
Group or Individual Leader: Group
Group or Individual Name(s):
# of Leaders:
Hierarchy of Individuals (Lower #= Higher Rank):
Permissions for Each Level of Hierarchy:
Can Members Join other Groups: Y / N ?
Subordinate Groups:
Hierarchy of Sub-Groups (Lower #= Higher Rank):
Permissions for Each Level of Sub-Groups:
Can Sub-Groups Join other Groups:
Your Group's Criminal Belief's:
Permissions to Foreigners:


Example of Completed Group Options—

Name: Brodgar
Oath/Motto: "Freedom. Community. Bravery."
Group or Individual Leader: Group
# of Leaders: 1
Group Name: Council of Brodgar
Hierarchy of Individuals (Lower #= Higher Rank): 0 Commoners
Permissions for Each Level of Hierarchy: 0 "Law of Homesteading"
Can Members Join other Groups: Yes (Cannot Join Groups in Conflict with Brodgar)
Subordinate Groups: Council of Brodgar, Guardians of Brodgar, Brodgar Labor Union, Emerald Traders, Ninja's Dojo, Wacko's Trade Emporium, The Jorb Family
Hierarchy of Subordinate Groups: 0 Council of Brodgar, 1 Guardians of Brodgar, 2 Brodgar Labor Union, 3 Emerald Traders, 3 Ninja's Dojo, 3 Wacko's Trade Emporium 4 The Jorb Family.
Permissions for Each Level of Sub-Groups: 0 "Law of Leadership," 1 "Law of Security," 2 "Law of Unions," 3 "Law of Tradesmen," 4 "Law of Homesteading"
Can Sub-Groups Join other Groups: 0-2 No, 3-4 Yes
Your Group's Criminal Belief's: "Law of Brodgar"
Permissions to Foreigners: "Law of Foreigners"

.02 NOTE LEX-HUMANA
With Willpower, players may use their hearthlings to shape custom sets of laws that can easily designate legal and illegal activities. Choose from a default list of laws, as can be exampled by our default Scent System, or, get in the nitty gritty, allowing only certain buildings to be built or destroyed, land to zoned for living, trade, or public domain. Be laissez-fair and allow the community to flourish as it will, or spiral into a quick demise. Set a code for your security force: Perhaps bludgeoning the occasional hoodlum will suffice to keep the peace, or perhaps capital punishment is in order—without consequence of a scent appearing at the guardsman's feet.



Will there be a time when killing must be justified by the dominant Will?

An intuitive interface can allow for incredible group management with mere checkboxes and a zoning tool. Save the Law as a property to apply to your group, or even offer your saved Law as a suggestion to those who call the shots.

IN CLOSING
Highlights:
Willpower=Organic claims. No LP Involved. Think Lockean Homestead Principle.

Willpower=Group Dynamic Options. Customization Involved in Group Creation! In addition to individuals forming Groups, so too can Groups form agreements with other Groups.

Willpower=Making one's own set of laws. Manipulate the current Scent System. Allow for you to defend your property without leaving a scent. Allow others to commit self-defined admissible actions, like hunting & butchering wild animals on your property.

Some of this is a new take on older suggestions in this forum, and all of it at this point is rather nebulous. Nevertheless, I hope this sparks adequate discussion that speaks to an upgrade on the system for Claiming. Crime & Punishment is lightly touched in this, but only because Crime & Punishment is a symptom of our current claim system, and serves little need to change without change first being made to Claims.

Hafen demands for a huge upgrade to the current square claim layers and their permission settings. Let's see what we can inspire the devs with.

[Oddity]

Write less flowery-y.

[Vaku]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfXfOCIIFcY

. . . Yeah, I'll draw up some tables and things, I guess.

[AnnaC]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22747

One of my C&I threads about the subject. Personal claim mechanics are still way overpowered (the ability to destroy inactive stakes this world is a step in the right direction).

Main thing is personal claims need some other metric for growth than simple LP investment; the curio system has made that necessary as it allows relatively inactive hearthlings to generate LP over time and not have any other sort of economic or terraforming investiture involved.


I like how your system is different and accounts for other things, but the main problem with it is its brand new and goes into a lot of other mechanics. This might not be bad as there is a new codebase, but the more stuff that is brand new, the less balance issues in the future will be known. I don't want to be here in four years discussing the crappy balance mechanics of willpower that were unknown today. Also another thing, is this new metric goes into and overlaps several other aspects of the game that are already in place but underused. "Group Dynamic Options", we have that to some extent in Kinships and Villages, both which need to be improved as they stand. Also stats like Charisma could factor more in how claims are managed or grown. I think it's better to take what is already here and underused and try to improve the functionality of that; it is easier to balance in the future as well as more of the unknown aspects are known.

I don't even want to speculate on how your "manipulation of the current scent system" would be abused by the current Haven community.

[LadyV]

I dont really desire another stat for which to control unless it adds new skills. Land ownership should be simple. Some people focus effort into owning more others do not. Its the way things work. At best Haven needs more beyond village level and more option to personal and village. The idea that one player can by his own will expand, recruit others, form a village, and then expand more is a good mechanic. It allows a goal for those who value physical measures of success.

My thought is Anna is correct. It would change Have quite substantially and have many balancing problems while creating limits in a game system designed to allow open ended progress.

[Xcom]

I didn't understand this idea at all.

Infinitely expandable willpower p-claims with the ability to avoid leaving scents? or did I get it wrong?

[Amanda44]

The problem I always have with your ideas is the complete disregard of hermits and casual players, I realise that the majority of players do play in groups but that shouldn't mean that play is impossible for single players, casuals or small groups of two/three players, these types of players are a large portion of the Haven player base even if not the majority and are already at a disadvantage in terms of defence, node protection and time investment/able bodies and that is naturally fair enough but your willpower idea just crushes them completely. You are even aware of this yourself;

That is correct, your personal claim is not bound by an arbitrary distance of 5 meters to another's; both claims can enter contested space, and it is up to you and the other to solve the dispute, lest your hubris send you to the grave. With great Willpower comes great responsibility, and you must treat others how you wish to be treated, or be a hypocrite.... Or perhaps the growing danger of another will push you to seek out a group to ensure your survival.

Were you worried that a group of ten or more could thwart your Willpower to keep your own property? Don't be, as others must either give you liberty or give you death. There is no way to minimize your Will and claim over lands without your own consent, but what's to stop them from killing you and taking your land? For that sort of protection, you may want to find some friends.

The idea of claims being more malleable and not restricted to the current square is one that I do like but not at the cost of denying your playstyle and restricting the player base.

As for scents - I have always thought some changes need to be made, for example, making rangering as a profession more desirable, the ability to defend without making yourself a target for others and being able to travel through huge claims without leaving trackable scents but, as Anna has said, this is a difficult mechanic to adjust without being open to abuse.

The beauty of Haven is that it has always given you the freedom to play as you desire, there are no set goals, each player makes their own individual game and their own choices. It is still playable and possible to advance for those with less time or demanding rl's and those that just want the quiet and solitary life. Anything that detracts from that and forces players to adopt a certain route will overall be detrimental to the game.

[McJager]

Yeah! Think of us hermits! It's a neat idea but it seems a little OP, And I kind of forsee a hermit with an enormous claim being a major target to anyone who wants the territory. Which means more death, And more fighting annnd well suppose that's ok, But not my cup of tea.

[Vaku]

Made some visuals and expanded and amended some ideas.




Additive Features
These are events that are linked to your claim. Taking these into account, these will empower your claim over new territory, and reinforce your claim on existing territory.

1. Possessions Linked to Player-Character Claim
Structures, Livestock, Agriculture, etc.
2. Activity Linked to Player-Character Claim
Construction, Production, Agriculture, Character Growth, etc.
3. Markers Linked to Claim
Bridges, Banners, Brands, Sigils, Symbols, etc.
4. Combinations to other Claims
Micro, Meso, & Macro increments of group development ~~Perhaps..

Decremental Features
These are events that are linked both to the Natural World and Contesting claims. Taking these into account, they will inhibit your claim over new territory, and weaken your claim on existing territory.

-1. Possessions Linked to Contesting Claim
Structures, Livestock, Agriculture, etc.
-2. Activity Linked to Contesting Claim
Construction, Production, Agriculture, Character Growth, etc.
-3. Man-Made & Natural Marker Limits to Claim
Bodies of Water, Walls, Bridges, Bannerss, Brands, Sigils, Symbols, etc.
-4. Sacrifices of Claim & Group Shaping Tools
Personal Zoning Tool, Group's Authority/ies' Zoning Tool

This below visual depicts possible interaction between three claims. A bridge acts as a conflict zone, extending Habitat 1's claim across the river. Habitat 1 has also built a wall to cease Claim Expansion to the west. Habitat 3's claim presses up against the wall—there is no 5 meter gap.



The below visual depicts a tool that helps to designate areas. It features a simple Box Select, Circle Select, Paint Select, and Erase button—other buttons are named.



The below visual depicts a tool being used to manage Scent Activity upon an OWNED claim. Scents can be toggled to summonable or not, if tracked. Trespassing and Assault do not feature this option because they are inherently non-summonable crimes. This is useful if you want to perform a Killing on your own property and do not want to leave a scent for defending your property.

An example law formed with this tool would be "Florida Stand Your Ground Law." Presumably, you would begin by erasing default Scent Rules on your property. You must then select all groups and individuals and finish by deselecting yourself. Toggle all the scents, make them summonable, and select all items to have THEFT tracked on those items. Select Entire Claim as the location for this law to take effect. Complete the creation of the law.

If you find you have made a mistake, edit the law, then re-apply. If someone killed someone, stole, or otherwise committed a crime, and the law didn't fire as planned—you will have experienced a loophole in your law. Edit it.

What I forgot to do, and just now remembered, was that I wanted to add a section to apply a "weregild," to perpetrators—basically a bounty that fires automatically with discovery of the perpetrator... Not sure how it would work, but a fun thought.


Here's a mock up of how it might look...




There are lots of things I did not get to. Feel free to point them out so I don't forget, or if you wish, ask me for clarification on whatever is already here.

[LadyV]

I do respect the effort you have put into this. Some would love this much mcromanagement. However we have people who struggle with the concept you must discover prerequiste items before crafting more advanced ones. A host of new menus selecting who and what is affected will only serve to complicate things.

In all honesty it is far more convenient to just add LP to my claim than to worry about is this structure going to exert this much or that natural element going to boost this much. Your making ti overly complicated.

All that said I do think we should be able to affect shape of claim more than we currently do. The current system where another claim blocks expansion is annoying at times. Now in villages I can see more menu options for who things affect or do not. SO its more plausible there.