Game Rename

[Dondy]

Haven and Hearth does seem to be a little bit inappropriate as a game name right now. "Hearth" has implications of a sanctuary and whatever else the game has it's not that.

The number one game strategy at the moment is thief and/or griefer. The cost of the skills necessary to be a thief is negligible just as the cost of the skills to say become a miner are fairly negligible. I'd say two or three four to six hour gaming sessions at a rough guess. But farmer and miner and other production strategies have a high cost for that production. To mine you don't just need the skills for it, you need the mine, the smelter, the tea, the tools, the beeswax, the finery forge and the time. To thief you need... just a little time and chutzpah. In terms of investment right now it is silly to try honesty.

Add to that that theivery is probably the least of a miner's worries right now. Never mind logging on each day to find your cast iron has disappeared. Actually it looks like you will be logging one each day to start making bricks to mend your smelter... Vandalism and destruction have ensure that if all they do is take the metal you probably want to find the thief scent to track down the thief and thank them for allowing you to keep the fixures! Nope I don't think there is much point grinding lp for an empty inventory.

Another possible strategy is to be a nomadic hunter type. But nomadic hunters need metal for weapons and armor and the easiest way to get those is combine this strategy with theif again. The honest nomadic hunter is going to lag way, way behind the dishonest one. So again that brings me to my conclusion. The only strategy now to play in this game is a theif.

There may be some high level characters who started in the game early who are lurking on a mine in Mordor but I don't have much hope for their chances of staying hidden. Theives are going to outnumber other players by a big enough factor that it won't be long before the thief players are having their alts buid a road to make finding them effortless.

What's left is going to be a game of thieves at war. The next logical development is that the hapless theives are going to have to start producing. There won't be anyone but thieves to steal from!

[theTrav]

There are so many things wrong with the posts in this thread.

There are many ways to play this game and many things that people enjoy.

1 - Have a big stockpile of materials
2 - Have high stats in the game
3 - Have lots of people in your village to talk to and interact with
4 - Be liked by a lot of people in the game
5 - Be hated by a lot of people in the game
6 - Hunt a lot of animals
7 - Build some nice installation art style formations (shrines and the like, I've seen heaps)
8 - Have a road side diner where people come from all over the game world to hang out and chat
9 - Plant your own forest
10 - Chase after people who want to be hated and have everyone love you as a thief slayer and bringer of justice

There are TONS more things that people enjoy.

You have to get past this "I'm only having fun if I win, and I only win if everyone else loses" mentality.
Yes, playing a thief is viable, yes hunting and performing 'dangerous' (more so once path finding happens) activities will give you more stats making you more combat capable.
Does that mean that I can't play and have fun just tooling around lake-town building a few small buildings, planting some crops and trees? Chasing around moths and enjoying people's art works?
Hell no.

Be less competitive and play with a light heart and you'll find the game a lot more rewarding.

[Dondy]

No, I really do think the most practical path at this point is to be a thief with reincarnation.

The things you suggest seem to be freighted now with a serious baggage of frustration. I've tried a lot of the other things - I built some nice shrines and installations, planted a lot of trees, planted crops, stockpiled a lot of materials, made friends and so on, and had a lot of fun doing so.

One of the friends has been murdered, another three are no longer playing either for fear of being murdered or from being bored with being pecked to death. Going for high stats when you expect to lose the character to someone bigger picking a fight is plain silly. The stockpile and the trees and the shrines have all been vandalised so that I have a choice of either abandoning them half wrecked or getting into the tedious game of logging on each morning to check the damage control and do the repairs. It's one thing to build a seven-circle maze and plant it, it's another thing to keep repaving it. I'm not competitive enough to want to get into that kind of a dysfuctional relationhship. It makes more sense to move steadily across the landscape felling trees than it does to actually plant them. I'm pretty sure felling them is the better lp than planting them anyway. I can probably chop forty trees in the time it would take to plant four of them.

Playing the game to be hated is essentially the same as the thief/vandal stategy. I'm not saying there are no other ways of playing than thief, and I have no intention of turning thief or vandal myself, I'm just saying that if you are the least bit competitive, thief is such an obvious choice is a no-brainer.


Also, what I am saying is that right _now_ there is not much point playing as anything but a thief. But we are in alpha and by September the thief players could be the ones sulking and saying "No fair!" because Jorb and Loftar have kindly instituted dungeons and torture chambers that only can be used on people who have the thief skill and/or the rage skill, and from which they can't log out. I've only been playing six weeks. The devs have been at this for months.

[theTrav]

1 - I've seen plenty of shrines and instillation arts pieces that haven't been vandalised, any vandalism that's happened to lake town in terms of aesthetics has been fixed within a few minutes, except for tree chopping which is fixed within a day or two (full nature = super fast apple tree growth)
2 - I've still got friends who play in my village and I enjoy interacting with
3 - A hunter does not need metal armor
4 - Metal weapons do not deteriorate
5 - An honest competitive hunter who has full change will be FAR ahead of a dishonest competitive hunter who needs to be 100% tradition to avoid death by thief takers.
6 - Some people feel bad when they cause other players frustration and anguish

There's a handful of reasons why playing a thief/bastard is NOT the ONLY practical way to play.

I understand the point you're making, but I think you're wrong.

[kobnach]

1 - I've seen plenty of shrines and instillation arts pieces that haven't been vandalised, any vandalism that's happened to lake town in terms of aesthetics has been fixed within a few minutes, except for tree chopping which is fixed within a day or two (full nature = super fast apple tree growth)
2 - I've still got friends who play in my village and I enjoy interacting with
3 - A hunter does not need metal armor
4 - Metal weapons do not deteriorate
5 - An honest competitive hunter who has full change will be FAR ahead of a dishonest competitive hunter who needs to be 100% tradition to avoid death by thief takers.
6 - Some people feel bad when they cause other players frustration and anguish

There's a handful of reasons why playing a thief/bastard is NOT the ONLY practical way to play.

I understand the point you're making, but I think you're wrong.

Since when does only the thief need to avoid death by thief takers? We've already had multiple instances of innocents being killed by rangers. And I think Dondy was being specific about his own friends. Yours may not have been driven away (yet); that doesn't help Dondy or his friends. As for #6, that's probably the only thing that's preventing H&H from being properly named "Havoc & Hatred".

[Dondy]

Well, the thing about playing a thief is... it means you're a failure at everything else. The definition of a thief is someone who is dependent on other people. If there was no one to steal from, I rather suspect the theives would give up in dismay and disgust. It probably makes the thief feel smug and proud to steal a cache of steel but at the same time who got the lp for producing it? A thief is really someone who puts themself in a dependant child role, looking for other people to provide for them. Of course they do so like a very sulky, demanding child rather than a lovable one but they are still looking for a handout and probably trying somewhat frantically to get noticed too, again like a not-so-loveable child. I'm not advocating anyone should become a thief, I'm just saying that anyone lazy is going to find it a hard path to overlook.

My feeling here is that the game is getting top heavy so the thief to actual producer ratio is getting skewed in favour of thieves, but that could be a matter of my location. I'm right next to JTG's Town idol now! I daresay I have a dozen of his alts stampeding through what used to be Dondyheim farm on a nightly basis. If the ratio were say 1/100 thieves would be an interesting and possibly romantic profession. My experience -and yours clearly differs- is that since the thieves outnumber us the landscape is starting to look lunar. If I put something down and log out it is guaranteed to go walkabout. Never mind a hunter needing metal armour, it would be nice if I could actually produce some leather armour! But I console myself that JTG's #17 alt has a nice pair of leather pants and a breastplate now from that leather I managed to get into the tanning vat.

[theTrav]

Since when does only the thief need to avoid death by thief takers?

I was under the impression that Dondy was trying to sell thieving as the only practical option for game play. I fail to see how a hunter who is a thief can keep up on the stat race (assuming that's the game he wants to play, which is what I believe Dondy was suggesting) if he's dying all the time.

We've already had multiple instances of innocents being killed by rangers.

1 - That's not relevant
2 - The only case I can clearly recall was the guy in Kimya's camp who was mouthing off at someone VASTLY more powerful than him.

And I think Dondy was being specific about his own friends.

Dondy was making a statement about the ONLY or BEST way to play and using his own circumstances as one point of evidence. I am using my own circumstance as a counter point, evidence that it IS still possible to play with your friends and have some good clean social fun.

Yours may not have been driven away (yet); that doesn't help Dondy or his friends.

Dondy's specific circumstance is only relevant as one data point, anecdotal evidence to back up his claim of the ONLY or BEST way to play the game. I believe he's making his conclusion on insufficient evidence and I also believe that the theoretical backing to his claims are also deeply flawed.

As for #6, that's probably the only thing that's preventing H&H from being properly named "Havoc & Hatred".

You're basically saying that human nature tends to lean more towards good than bad. I'm not sure how that argues that thievery is a "better" way to play than cooperation and being a "good guy".


I can understand why you're frustrated right now, but I think it's a product of a poor choice of philosophy perhaps coupled with a lot of forum drama. The vast majority of in game interactions appear to be much happier than forum interactions. I certainly don't think renaming the game would be either appropriate nor have any positive effect.

[theTrav]

Well, the thing about playing a thief is... it means you're a failure at everything else.

That is a very different concept to what I thought you were presenting, which was "The number 1 (best) occupation is currently thief"

My feeling here is that the game is getting top heavy so the thief to actual producer ratio is getting skewed in favour of thieves, but that could be a matter of my location.

I think it most likely is a matter of your location. I don't see a lot of players when I play because of my time zone, but if forum activity is anything to go by, there's perhaps 2 or 3 active thief players and around 10-30 active non thief players. That's far from outnumbering us.

My experience -and yours clearly differs- is that since the thieves outnumber us the landscape is starting to look lunar.

I don't believe the lunar landscape is due to thievery, so much as lack of content in the game and the far flung settlements. I think we've over disbursed.

If I put something down and log out it is guaranteed to go walkabout.

Not my experience.

Never mind a hunter needing metal armour, it would be nice if I could actually produce some leather armour! But I console myself that JTG's #17 alt has a nice pair of leather pants and a breastplate now from that leather I managed to get into the tanning vat.

1 - If you want some leather, come to lake town and I'll trade you a chest load for a single moth. That's an effort bargain from your end and a supply/demand bargain from my end, win win?
2 - JTG's alt is probably dead by now assuming he left thief scents all over your property. In addition to that, all the alt killing the rangers have been able to do is quite likely giving them RICOCKULOUS power levels. (LP gain from killing PC's is VASTLY higher than that of killing animals)

[kobnach]

Since when does only the thief need to avoid death by thief takers?

I was under the impression that Dondy was trying to sell thieving as the only practical option for game play. I fail to see how a hunter who is a thief can keep up on the stat race (assuming that's the game he wants to play, which is what I believe Dondy was suggesting) if he's dying all the time.

I don't think he's trying to sell it, as much as expressing the expectation that a lot of people will come to this conclusion - and that he cannot argue with them, not from his experience.

We've already had multiple instances of innocents being killed by rangers.

1 - That's not relevant
2 - The only case I can clearly recall was the guy in Kimya's camp who was mouthing off at someone VASTLY more powerful than him.

It's relevant if honest people feel the need to move toward tradition because they consider themselves likely to be murdered.

As for #6, that's probably the only thing that's preventing H&H from being properly named "Havoc & Hatred".

You're basically saying that human nature tends to lean more towards good than bad. I'm not sure how that argues that thievery is a "better" way to play than cooperation and being a "good guy".

I can understand why you're frustrated right now, but I think it's a product of a poor choice of philosophy perhaps coupled with a lot of forum drama. The vast majority of in game interactions appear to be much happier than forum interactions. I certainly don't think renaming the game would be either appropriate nor have any positive effect.

I think renaming the game would encourage new players like JTG and Ferinex, who like conflict and find peaceful development boring, while discouraging players like sami1337 who find H&H's current state far too frustrating. That would mean more of H&H's player base would be happy and inclined to stay, while fewer would be feeling like they got caught in a bait-and-switch, trying to play a game that existed in name only. It would also mean that nice people who happened to like that kind of conflict game could play contentedly, not feeling guilty for driving off those seeking peaceful development. Surely having more happy players and fewer frustrated or guilty ones is a good thing.

[theTrav]

I don't think he's trying to sell it, as much as expressing the expectation that a lot of people will come to this conclusion - and that he cannot argue with them, not from his experience.

3 posts? 2 direct responses to me telling him that I disagree with HIS conclusion? I don't think he's speculating at what other people thing, I think he's arguing his own point of view. Maybe you should ask him instead of telling me.

It's relevant if honest people feel the need to move toward tradition because they consider themselves likely to be murdered.

Have you done so? I haven't. Are you aware of anyone else who has? How is it relevant to thievery being the only way for people to enjoy the game? If stats and LP don't matter (which they don't so some people) then tradition is not a handicap.

I think renaming the game would encourage new players like JTG and Ferinex, who like conflict and find peaceful development boring, while discouraging players like sami1337 who find H&H's current state far too frustrating. That would mean more of H&H's player base would be happy and inclined to stay, while fewer would be feeling like they got caught in a bait-and-switch, trying to play a game that existed in name only.

This part of your argument is deeply flawed in that the majority of the player base AND THE DEVS do NOT want to attract more players who want to play like JTG. You may have misinterpreted their statements that griefers are useful in tuning to have meant that that is their end goal.

Secondly I think you're making incorrect assumptions on what's going on in Sammi's mind. I don't think he's being driven away, I think he's trying to make a statement about a very specific feature that he wants implemented. Maybe we should ask him? Or maybe just read what he's already written?

It would also mean that nice people who happened to like that kind of conflict game could play contentedly, not feeling guilty for driving off those seeking peaceful development. Surely having more happy players and fewer frustrated or guilty ones is a good thing.

Rift is a nice person who likes a bit of conflict. I don't think he feels guilty about driving off any lake town players, because he hasn't done so. I don't think changing the name of the game would change that at all.


Basically I think you've misinterpreted the aims of the dev's, I think you've misinterpreted how people are playing the game, whether they're enjoying it, and I think suggesting that we call the game "Havok and Hatred" is not a serious suggestion and that you're just feeling negative and arguing on a forum because disagreement is your first reaction when you're feeling negative (that's a pretty human trait, I'm not dissing you by saying that).