wolf1000wolf wrote:Astarisk wrote:There is an expectation that when running a certain piece of software that it connects only to the entity that it is expected to connect to. In terms of the hafen client the default and only expected behavior is that it should strictly be connecting solely to the hafen server.
Ok, a solid point that I agree with.Astarisk wrote:Shubla's implementation breaks this common understanding by introducing his own third party connections to his servers without the potential to opt-out of it at all. We can put some blame on foreign users for their failure to read and understand fluently but it is Shubla who has broken the commonly understood expectation -- while only providing at the time the most minimal of warning. Though even now he just offers up a more upfront than before but still vague enough warning.
This is less straight forward though, right? While I do agree that it would be better to have opt-in and in all honestly, shubla SHOULD put in some sorta optin/out at this point from an ethical pov, saying it breaks the understanding of a program "only connecting to what it is expected to" isn't quite correct because one of the main features of shubla's client is the "map site". The understanding of folks using the client is that it is connecting to some sorta other server beyond hafen's servers, no?
I don't think the argument here that ppl can't or didn't read the post from where they got the client would make as much sense here. It's less "not reading the TOS" and more "did not read the feature set"?
I'm not quite sure I fully understand what you were trying to say. So I'll do my best to try to fully respond.
You say that there should be an expectation of understanding since it is a service that naturally needs to connect to a third party and is advertised as a main feature in Shubla's client, I think that is what is being said? So the argument is that people should read the feature set list so they know what is going on?
This is Shubla's Features list. It is barely informative of anything at a glance.
Shubla wrote:Features
Extensive list of features is available in changelog
There is a site with food stuff info.
Also a map site, token for markers can be accessed in client settings.
To take it further you can even look at the change log itself, which is another step away from the main body of features. The closest you find is this.
- Added food & map service integrations
So at a quick glance you don't even really have an understanding as to what is going on. You can find more information in the thread but it is hidden behind a spoiler tag and not quite upfront.
That provides a little more information but it is still very vague and not entirely honest or upfront about what is happening. In fact the statement "Player location and marker data is not shared, and can only be accessed with the token that is located in the client Pasta Settings menu." is entirely dishonest and I'd argue offers a false narrative. Your location and marker data is not shared to everyone at anyone's whim, but it sure as hell accessible by Shubla and any associates he wishes to offer up the information to. The fact that Shubla has been fighting so hard to not offer up changes makes it very hard to want to trust the nature of his character and to blindly believe that none of the aforementioned information will be shared. I believe the best excuse he has offered up was that "he is too lazy" to implement anything involving them
Now the idea of a mapping service is not even a new concept. We have seen both APXEOLOG (viewtopic.php?f=49&t=67266) and Vendan (viewtopic.php?f=49&t=67298) release their own versions of this service that can be self ran. I have also written my own version of an auto-mapper so I understand what information is needed to make a world map and I can inform the public -- along with even Loftar saying it, that Shubla absolutely does not need to collect all he is collecting if the intention is just to make a community map. It is really that simple, there are far more viable and anonymous ways to achieve this effect. The goal of these services is to have the client automatically send grids, marker and player location to mapper services. However, none of the public clients have these features enabled by default and pointing towards a 3rd party ran server by a client creator posting in a public forum. Shubla just says what the service does - he was not upfront at all about it being the default de-facto forced service that it is revealed to be. Alongside there also being an understanding of the default implementation of this feature being entirely opt-in. Every client has included an option to use these services, but none of them has forced them on you. Shubla went against the default behavior that has been established as sort of precedence in the community.