Game Development: Rednosed Yule

[jorb]

the monkeys paw curls a-fucking-gain
armor repair 2.0

when will you learn to stop turning highly recommended changes into hot garbage because you cant resist fucking around with it

Hmmm? Are we talking about the changes to speed from Forager and Credo? What is so hot garbage about this version of it?

[Kaios]

I don't know the answer to that but it is certainly clear that combat needs more "skill factor" involved if the only form of it is determined by most players to be right clicking on a mob

[strpk0]

Even Jump is obviously better in this situation than Zig-Zag Ruse.

> Enemy has a spammable attack that can result in you being opened upwards of 70-100% yellow instantly
> There is no critter chasing anymore so getting people off you is very hard (people with 150% range cutblades btw)
> I know what to do, I will use:



Zig-zag is also the only non-suicidal red opening lowering move, and having to shoehorn jump into combat decks just because of one stupidly imbalanced attack seems like the wrong approach here.
And regardless of somehow avoiding using zig-zag, stacking 2 IP on someone using take aim takes less than 2 seconds.

[HasseKebab]

umm guys just use jump, if you zig zag to reduce the 70 opening you get from 2 people attacking you, you just give them another free attack!!
Jump is obviously the solution here, not at all like using take aim twice takes less than 3s at which point your yellow opening is 0!!! from using jump 500x times

[VDZ]

Even Jump is obviously better in this situation than Zig-Zag Ruse.

I'll make an analogue so you can understand.
Imagine your mother's boyfriend trying to beat shit out of you. Using jump to escape him is not feasible, because it's seventh floor, so the only thing remains to do is running zig-zag hoping that this drunk black man will eventually crash into something while giving you a kick in the ass at every zig-zag. That's how desperate situation is.
Hope it was helpful, cheers.

Then therein lies the problem. The pure yellow restoration that doesn't give IP should be the natural counter to the deck that spams one pure yellow move that requires IP. It doesn't need to cancel out SoS, but it should be a lot better than Zig-Zag Ruse in this context; if it isn't, it needs a major buff.

And regardless of somehow avoiding using zig-zag, stacking 2 IP on someone using take aim takes less than 2 seconds.

Which is still an opportunity cost. Perhaps not sufficiently so, but it's still better than them not having to waste time Taking Aim to activate their SoS.

and having to shoehorn jump into combat decks just because of one stupidly imbalanced attack seems like the wrong approach here.

No, that's exactly how meta changes work. Again, see my Slash Panther example. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is stupidly strong, but wasn't strong enough to get Restricted (limited to one copy) in Vintage (the highest-power format). It got kept in check by Slash Panther, a garbage card not even playable in the lowest-power formats, which became a Vintage staple because it managed to fit that specific meta (cheapest colorless way to kill Jace). If Jump counters SoS (which it doesn't do sufficiently right now, but which it should), then Jump should indeed be shoehorned into decks despite being bad against non-SoS due to the advantage it brings against SoS. This would then (if it worked correctly as counter) result in SoS becoming less popular, resulting in Jump becoming less required. The eventual state would then be that SoS ends up as a counter-meta surprise choice.

This whole situation reminds me of the Melee community, who insist on their Fox-only gameplay because they like the current skill level required, and are allergic to any notions of rebalancing to make the 19 completely worthless characters remotely viable. Hell, they bitched and moaned when even without any changes to the game itself one player shook up the metagame by taking Jigglypuff to the top level dominating even the Fox players. Variety is healthy for any metagame, there just need to be sufficient counters (rather than just a 'previous strategy is now nerfed into the ground, strategy X is now the only viable strategy' shakeup every now and then).

[vatas]

Reminds me of how Original Starcraft (Brood War expansion) is considered more balanced than the sequel, despite the latter being a live service game effectively.

Designing SC2 with e-sports in mind and the active balancing from the devs in response to meta-shifts actually hurted the game and most big Starcraft streamers have actually returned to Brood War. Turns out that if you design an unit to fit a specific role and make sure it has same value/cost like the equivalents from two other races, you end up with bland units. Meanwhile original game had motley crew of units for each faction, that ended up providing enough options and counters to foster a living and growing metagame where none of the three races is considered completely unviable. (Note that I did saw one statistic that removed each races' best player and it resulted Terran having a 48% winrate while others stayed at 50% or more, best Terran player is allegedly just so good.)

To bring this back to on-topic and avoid accusations of me defending any problems with Haven pvp meta rising from current Combat Moves, I do have to point out that Jorb and Loftar aren't 1990s Blizzard employees.

[strpk0]

stuff

my dude, idk how people could make it any clearer

there is no cute “use the innovative jump move and adapt to the new meta!” here, jump is terrible against SoS

by the time you reduce any reasonable amount of yellow with it, people will have hit you many times more and youll be face down on the dirt

theres also not nearly enough max points on a combat deck to fit another move into it, to begin with

maybe try experiencing the discussion topic before you try to draw parallels that don’t exist with completely unrelated games

[Renn_Sanor]

whorunooby wrote:
Don’t forget to destroy existing Cave Palisade Traps and nuke the villages of the Cheaters who made them!

I'll let you know when they get rid of the rat trap but so far, its up

strpk0 wrote:

there is no cute “use the innovative jump move and adapt to the new meta!” here, jump is terrible against SoS

If Yield ground switched the green with the blue and maybe adjust it a bit so it doesn't completely destroy B12 meta maybe there's room to buff jump after so not everyone goes zigzag, quick dodge and sidestep. I just wish Watch its Moves and Feigned Dodge had more meta relevance.

[VDZ]

there is no cute “use the innovative jump move and adapt to the new meta!” here, jump is terrible against SoS

by the time you reduce any reasonable amount of yellow with it, people will have hit you many times more and youll be face down on the dirt

That's precisely what I'm saying. Jump apparently fails to fulfill its role, so it needs to be buffed. (If it's not useful against 'pure yellow spam that requires LP', then when would it be useful? Never, at its current power level.) And yes, then you will need to adjust your deck to fit in Jump somehow.

[SnuggleSnail]

Removing kritter speed buffs is the biggest change that's happened to PvP since I started playing like 5 years ago. Bigger than the 300% sword buff. Bigger than UA equalization. So big I'm complaining about it instead of a new, faster winter boat (which is awful btw).

It's crazy this change came about because 1 single village of people who don't even PvP made 1 thread and probably had like 5 people with scripts PM you. Just like the sword buff was because of one conversation with verascksksk, or how like 3 people who like archery have you believing less than 98% of papers don't want it straight up removed.

After seeing one chase without kritters I'm either not going to login again or only play very casually until it's fixed.


TL;DR revert forager change this shit sucks ass