Rawhide is OP

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby BruThoL » Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:47 pm

vatas wrote:Even worse, here's a perfectly rational response from logical human being who doesn't know Raw Hide! exists:
I'm on horseback, they're on foot. I can go interact them, as long as I keep some distance I can just flee much faster if they're host- wtf is my horse doing?


And even worse, being on horse makes you more vulnerable than being on foot.
This broken mechanic makes your work going against you. No gamer can agree with that. Only griefers enjoy that shit to kill sprucecaps.

Imagine building a pali weaker than a roundpole fence. That's what horses are because of rawhide as of now and the past few years (that's not the first forum post on that topic).
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby vatas » Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:38 pm

BruThoL wrote:Imagine building a pali weaker than a roundpole fence. That's what horses are because of rawhide as of now and the past few years (that's not the first forum post on that topic).


Not really, but you're close to an accurate analogy - imagine if a fresh player could build a palisade in certain way that's intuitive to make it easier to defend. However game would flag it as siege/troll claim and make it easier to destroy!
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby Potjeh » Sat Nov 18, 2023 6:40 am

Instead of stunning, rawhide should make the horse run away.
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby Aerona » Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:49 am

Rather than removing the speed advantage of high-quality ships or horses or countering them with a stun, I think the best counter would be traps and snares that can be placed on the ground in front of a fast-moving horse or vehicle to damage it. This would let disadvantaged players level the playing field by outwitting foes that are moving too fast to react, with a plausible reason for the damage to be higher the bigger the fast-mover's advantage is. It very plausibly hurts more to run into something dangerous when charging in at high speed, even on foot.

This also makes ranged combat more important, since aggressive melee pursuit becomes more risky. It needn't be too punishing, since the one who is moving aggressively could slow down or break off to protect themselves after sustaining damage, giving the defender a chance to escape or risk a counter-attack of their own.
Last edited by Aerona on Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby Barbamaus » Mon Nov 20, 2023 2:41 pm

Potjeh wrote:Instead of stunning, rawhide should make the horse run away.


That's a great idea!

It would remove raw-hide as a spruce-hunting system, while still making it useful in pvp to avoid players running at you with horses.

+1
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby kmarad » Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:00 pm

Potjeh wrote:Instead of stunning, rawhide should make the horse run away.


Agreed, and the cost should be a little higher, like 1000 xp.
Or that could leave a scent as it could be used to steal horses...
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby vatas » Thu Jan 25, 2024 9:58 am

Original post makes a valid point but the solution (just nerf the numbers) is less than optimal. I would like to try and explain the problems with Rawhide more conceptually.

1) It might be worth noting that compared to a real horse, Haven horses have no limit in turning speed and outside of the current raw hide, obey the rider blindly and unquestionably. (as long as they have Pony Power.)
2) Horses provide game-breaking advantage in movement-based combat. (Worst case scenario for a rider fighting a Titan on foot was that they need to flee.)
3) Developers also added "dismount rider" that theoretically could solve the previous problem, but since it uses a "flower menu" to access, it is clunky at best and inaccessible to people with high ping at worst.
4) "Rawhide!" was implemented as blunt way to remove horses from PvP fights entirely.
5) Addition of "Rawhide!" fulfilled its primary goal - horses couldn't be used in PvP fights at all due to how accessible "Rawhide!" was even before the XP cost was reduced.
6) While you can still use horses for travel and even as "battle taxi", lot of people simply ignore them to not have to worry about "Rawhide!" or dismount/flee immediately if unknown player is spotted.
7) This effectively left "Rawhide!" as a tool to kill sprucecaps and hermits who may not even be aware that "Rawhide!" is a thing and think they're safe(r) horseback. It wouldn't even be irrational to think that talking to strangers, travelling on foot, when you're on horseback, would be perfectly safe. After all, you're much faster than them and could simply flee the encounter should it turn hostile. Then your horse starts "dancing" for some reason..
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby SnuggleSnail » Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:13 am

vatas wrote:Addition of "Rawhide!" fulfilled its primary goal - horses couldn't be used in PvP fight [...] This effectively left "Rawhide!" as a tool to kill sprucecaps and hermits.


Even with rawhide as """powerful""" as it is horses have been used in practically every fight I've been to this world, and literally every gank. If the average haven player PVPed occasionally the common request would be for raw hide to have its range extended further than render distance.

You can make a strong argument that somebody could very reasonably not know rawhide exists and get fucked in a chase because of it, and I'd probably agree, but also I'm pretty sure anybody that's still at that point in their hafen career is fucked either way.

Kinda feel like adding tutorials is the thing that should be asked for here. "Raw hide a honse" quest/credo quest, make wild horses shit themselves and drop a decent curio if raw hided, hearth magic tutorial quests that has you use various magics, etc. Playing the game normally should teach PVP basics.
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby Barbamaus » Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:29 pm

vatas wrote:3) Developers also added "dismount rider" that theoretically could solve the previous problem, but since it uses a "flower menu" to access, it is clunky at best and inaccessible to people with high ping at worst.

Are you suggesting that adding "dismount rider" as an ability/magic rather than a flower menu option would solve the horse issue?
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Re: Rawhide is OP

Postby vatas » Wed Feb 28, 2024 10:27 am

SnuggleSnail wrote:Even with rawhide as """powerful""" as it is horses have been used in practically every fight I've been to this world, and literally every gank. If the average haven player PVPed occasionally the common request would be for raw hide to have its range extended further than render distance.

Change the "Raw Hide!" effect into a fear where horse will prioritize running away from the character that used "Raw Hide!" and make it also apply to any player leashed horses as well (if scripts to leash own horse into a tree is a concern, also horses leashed to unclaimed objects I guess.) To my understanding, this would cripple it as a "seal club" and would justify the range buff to help make it the intended PvP tool.

Barbamaus wrote:
vatas wrote:3) Developers also added "dismount rider" that theoretically could solve the previous problem, but since it uses a "flower menu" to access, it is clunky at best and inaccessible to people with high ping at worst.

Are you suggesting that adding "dismount rider" as an ability/magic rather than a flower menu option would solve the horse issue?

I mean, if the "Push" action on a horse with a rider would automatically attempt to Dismount, that would be an improvement. The fact that the action is behind a flower menu is less of a problem than the arbitrary doubling of the Ping, when using any flower menu, as explained on the link.
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