General bots/botting discussion

[boshaw]

The role of botting is to get stuff done without actually paying attention to the task and maybe have multiple bots running on different accounts while being AFK or raiding with the "rage" alt.
I believe the game will be better off with one account per IP and only one character per account. This will enhance the social interaction since people then will need to
cooperate to get things done.

There is this wonderful thing called multitasking and monitoring bots is not a challenging thing to do.

And the one ip per account is highly abusable and would only hurt normal players or lazy people.

So monitoring bots is not hard? I am afraid I missed the point of that sentence in this context.
Yes, I guess it is abusable, but is the abuse detectable? If so users who does abuse could be banned for ever.
Also there are programs that can help out against hackers/cheaters. For instance: http://www.easyanticheat.net/
Im not sure if EAC is the right thing for HnH, though.

The point was that bots being used to completely not pay attention is flawed and the idea that a captcha will stop them all is also flawed.

And as for third party programs there's also ways to get around them and in our case good luck enforcing them to begin with when the client is completely open. Not to mention adding randomness and stupidity to a bot to fool server side detection is not difficult.

[Kaios]

Boshaw you have plenty of reasons as to why it's so difficult to prevent botting, especially with an open source client, but we've heard them all before. How about using that big, sexy brain of yours for suggestions that help improve the current situation rather than giving loftar more reason to affirm his position that there is nothing he could do.

[shubla]

Captchas are fun! Sometimes..

[jorb]

giving loftar more reason to affirm his position that there is nothing he could do.

I can assure you that boshaw's arguments make not a whiff of difference on this particular subject. Nor, really, do anyone else's.

You do not correctly appreciate the difficulty of the problem.

[boshaw]

Boshaw you have plenty of reasons as to why it's so difficult to prevent botting, especially with an open source client, but we've heard them all before. How about using that big, sexy brain of yours for suggestions that help improve the current situation rather than giving loftar more reason to affirm his position that there is nothing he could do.

I personally think what loftar has done so far is the right direction with providing automation by default. They fall short in some areas like ddd said which is the only reason you would put a bot on top of them. Realistically you're not going to stop all botting even in a perfect system.

In the end it's a matter of fixing the underlying problem versus masking it and pretending it's gone and if anything it further widens the advantage gap between players who are capable of bypassing whatever system versus those who dont/can.

[Kaios]

You do not correctly appreciate the difficulty of the problem.

I do appreciate that it's difficult but maybe one day someone like boshaw who certainly has a much better idea of the specifics of this than I ever could might actually suggest something that helps, it doesn't have to be in the form of client security or some annoying captcha method. I just don't like to see someone say that there is nothing they can do when I know that they haven't even really tried.

...

And for the record I do agree on all your points, especially with what loftar has done so far to lessen the problem. It's a step in the right direction.

[pedorlee]

giving loftar more reason to affirm his position that there is nothing he could do.

I can assure you that boshaw's arguments make not a whiff of difference on this particular subject. Nor, really, do anyone else's.

You do not correctly appreciate the difficulty of the problem.

Could you please develop them a bit more so we can think about it too?

[jorb]

This have been talked a lot of times, and i'll remark what Jorb sayd in his streaming:

There is no way other than euristics to detect its use ( modified clients). I don't know why euristics aren't used then

A heuristic technique (/hjʉˈrɪstɨk/; Ancient Greek: εὑρίσκω, "find" or "discover"), often called simply a heuristic, is any approach to problem solving, learning, or discovery that employs a practical method not guaranteed to be optimal or perfect, but sufficient for the immediate goals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic

Point being that bot detection relies on indirect methods of discovery which can, by their nature as such, be circumvented.

[dageir]

Yes, I am sure there is ways to get around anything. That does not mean one does not try to stop the majority of cheaters.
I can see many potential players circumvent this game if this is not looked into.

[jorb]

Let me put it like this: If we required biometric verification, retina scans, and constant webcam connection, then there would probably still be botting.