Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2 now

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Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2 now

Postby VDZ » Thu Dec 18, 2025 5:22 am

I don't know to what extent the devs are aware of this, as this problem gradually crept in over time as more and more things became dependent on hard metal, and W14's change to cave layers made hard metal require a minehole, which in turn requires 10 wax which is notoriously tedious to obtain (hence its value), so I'm explicitly pointing this out to make the current situation clear.

As it is right now, without collecting 50 candleberries or 100 honeycombs, you cannot:

  • Get hard metal stuff - This is the obvious one, and clearly intended. You're locked out of swords (all kinds) and the only spear, heavy armors, and various hard metal odds and ends.
  • Get most soft metal stuff - This is a very frustrating one. When you finally get your hands on metal, previously one of the major progression steps, you check your recipes one by one and see...nope, requires an anvil. Nope, requires an anvil too. Nope, that also can't be made without an anvil. Hammer and anvil is required for most things metal, and you don't get it until you hit layer 2 now. The only truly major breakthrough you still get from soft metal is being able to build mine supports; the once legendary wooden chest upgrade has been rendered nigh-obsolete by great natural containers (especially the Jotun Clam, which essentially invalidates portable container progression entirely).
  • Craft glass - The impopular change to require a glass blowing rod and lye had another side effect: glass is entirely dependent on hard metal (as you need an anvil to craft the glass blowing rod), so since W14, glass is now entirely dependent on collecting 50 candleberries or 100 honeycombs. (Side note: historically, glassmaking long predates ironworking, which makes it even more ridiculous.) This obviously affects typical glass items, but it also cascades into things like not being able to...
  • Perform proper alchemy - From way before you have any metal (or even cloth or whatever), you can start creating elixirs by mixing things essentially at random and hoping to find a good overlap somewhere. However, every tool required in refining ingredients - retort, tripod burner, burette, testtube rack - requires either glass or hard metal, meaning you're entirely locked into 'use all effects' elixirs until you can suddenly do nearly everything else.
  • Make sausages - The ceramic meat grinder has yet to make its return, so while we're stacking up tons of intestines we can't use (I can defeat boars in a fair fight without taking wounds, but don't have 10 wax), we remain unable to use them for sausages. Not even kebab can be made until you go deeper underground.
  • Travel across oceans, or carry a lot of cargo during naval journeys - It used to be that cloth production was very interesting to work towards as it had a major payoff in the form of a snekkja (or before that, a knarr), but I have more than enough cloth for one now and the only impressive thing I can do with it (that I couldn't do with my smaller first batch of cloth) is build barter stands, which without coins (layer 3) are barely functional (as few people are interested in whatever 1:1 trades you offer, and you need coins to specifiy 'I need X, Y or Z, and will offer A, B and/or C in return'; you also can't use them to buy things you don't have yet (e.g. hard metal)).
  • Build a cellar - This is kinda under 'hard metal stuff', but it's notable that the extra storage space (without taking extra space on your claim) has been delayed until a fairly late point. As a hermit, I always have to build multiple buildings just to stash my stuff. (This actually goes further into the tedium of storage management being a problem, but that's too big of a subject to handle here.)
  • Summon nidbanes - As nidbane fetters require hard metal. Thus, anyone can steal or vandalize the property of players who haven't reached the second layer yet without any risk of getting nidbanes sent after them.
  • Get wine or beer - As they require demijohns, which require glass. (Vinegar can fortunately still be made using buckets.) (EDIT: Can be made without a glass blowing rod, so not dependent on hard metal.)
  • Build mine supports without carrying in wood from the outside - As only wooden mine supports can be built without hard metal. It's a minor thing, but it adds tedium, which now lasts significantly longer.
  • Craft coade clay - Which, again, requires glass. This is fortunately a moot point due to a different change unrelated to metal that's crept in:

Beyond the metal issue itself, there is one other thing that requires layer 2+ nowadays: you need deeper layers to get higher quality stones, and you need higher quality stones to get sharp tools beyond top natural clay quality. Tool quality nowadays hardcaps quality of all animal products, so I've hit a hard cap on anything you get from hunting that can't be resolved until I reach layer 2. (Theoretically you could farm for weeks to get string and wood of a high enough quality to surpass that limit, but that's beyond impractical.)

Now, here's the real kicker: as a hermit, when I finally do reach layer 2, I unlock everything at the same time. I've had so much time to prepare, all of these things that were once small individual steps become available to me all at once, to the point where there's barely anything I wanted to accomplish left. Thinking back to the previous couple of worlds, I think this was what caused me to gradually stop playing every time. Everything's been accomplished, all at once; why keep playing? I can finally sail the world in my Snekkja, but what can I still discover that's worth the effort? I can create spectacles, but my PER*EXP already lets me see everything. I could make sausages, but I'm not capping anything with my stats anymore. Mining has become easier, but I already have all the metal I need. All that's left to do is to grind quality...and go back to collecting 50 more candleberries to take the only major progression step still available to me now.
Last edited by VDZ on Thu Dec 18, 2025 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby jock » Thu Dec 18, 2025 7:36 am

Bee dungeons solved most issues with wax, alongsidd beehives being mass producable.
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby VDZ » Thu Dec 18, 2025 7:52 am

The bee dungeon that takes an average of 50 raided beehives to spawn and is intended for a group to beat? I don't see how it helps hermits not to get locked out of tons of content which then unlocks all at once.
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby TemuSoldier » Thu Dec 18, 2025 7:58 am

make friends?

few worlds ago I cleared it with a group of 3 with obsidian shanks on like day 4 of the world. You have increased study/hunger rates here :)
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby springyb » Thu Dec 18, 2025 10:27 am

jock wrote:Bee dungeons solved most issues with wax, alongsidd beehives being mass producable.


I think the most telling thing is that no where does VDZ even acknowledge that bee hives are used to produce wax and are a day 1 build.

Learned helplessness
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby Rebs » Thu Dec 18, 2025 11:12 am

A few things here.

1. Glass can be made without glassblower rod you just can't make certain items you can for example still make demijohns before hard metal.
2. I want to sell my 2 cupboards of wax.
3. Day one beeskeps/collecting beelarva is the new strat early game, candleberry grind is less needed in addition to bee dungeons which sure might require like 2-3 people but it's honestly not that bad.
4. I do agree that there is a lot locked before hard metal and it does feel like 'oh the game actually unlocks for me now' but I think that's an issue with pre-hard metal content not post, maybe a few things should be moved behind iron specifically to break up the bump of unlocks.
5. I have never been blocked by wax, it's always normally str that's the issue.
6. I think the pressure of hitting lvl 2 along side everyone else is the also a big problem. With the speed up I can totally see lots of people being behind and suddenly seeing themselves fighting against bronze swords. A week felt okay, W16 we got all our skeps stolen and still had plenty of time to get wax for the mine but W16.1 if you your day 1 skeps/larva were stolen I can imagine it would be annoying.
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby Halbertz » Thu Dec 18, 2025 11:57 am

Smoke some bees bro. It's that easy
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby Audiosmurf » Thu Dec 18, 2025 1:35 pm

Nothing should be designed around hermits in any capacity
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby VDZ » Thu Dec 18, 2025 2:42 pm

springyb wrote:I think the most telling thing is that no where does VDZ even acknowledge that bee hives are used to produce wax and are a day 1 build.

Learned helplessness

Beehives are helpful for producing more wax for even deeper layers, but the initial setup requires raiding wild beehives and it takes a while for them to produce their first wax. In practice they barely help to get you the initial 10 wax.

Rebs wrote:2. I want to sell my 2 cupboards of wax.

I quite doubt it, considering even later in the world wax is worth 1/5th of a pearl each, and it's tons more valuable early world.

Halbertz wrote:Smoke some bees bro. It's that easy

15 minutes per hive, with a good chance of getting 0 of your required 100 honeycombs. It's a lot faster to just try hives at random, that way you can get to layer 2 by just checking a couple hundred hives.

Audiosmurf wrote:Nothing should be designed around hermits in any capacity

Hermits (and small villages of non-diehard players which experience the same problem) are a large portion of the playerbase, larger than the vocal major factions everything seems to get designed around. Like, this:
Rebs wrote:6. I think the pressure of hitting lvl 2 along side everyone else is the also a big problem. With the speed up I can totally see lots of people being behind and suddenly seeing themselves fighting against bronze swords.

is a problem only a tiny aspect of the playerbase has. I guarantee you 99% of the playerbase is not currently engaging in combat against other players, much less finding themselves facing enemies with superior weapons often enough to impact their fun. All of these things I mentioned used to be gradual unlocks for hermits, unlocking one by one to keep motivation to unlock the next thing every time, but they got locked away behind what was always one of the hardest steps to make things more fun for competing major factions. Going to cave layer 2 used to be entirely optional for the core gameplay. I'm not asking for precious metals, silk, meteorites, whales or other top stuff to be made more accessible to hermits, I just want to get back what we used to have. I have plentiful leather, enough cloth, more soft metal than I need, and so on. I just want more options to move forward than 'grind candleberries or honeycombs to have everything unlock at once'.


Rebs wrote:1. Glass can be made without glassblower rod you just can't make certain items you can for example still make demijohns before hard metal.

You're right, my bad. It does have a similar problem as with metal and anvils that you need the glass blowing rod for most uses, but it doesn't apply to demijohns and things requiring them.
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Re: Tons of content is locked behind hard metal/cave layer 2

Postby jock » Thu Dec 18, 2025 2:56 pm

As someone who has run several markets and is oftrn more invested in the non token economy of haven.

Wax is not an issue, it is a solvable problem. Smoking beehives in a loop and you can get alot of wax quick. You rarely care about candelberries anymore tbh not even for high ql wax.

You don't even need to smoke beehives, you can raid see if theu spawn if so leave go to next, make more and more skeps, NEVER bash skeps just move them to the side, plant throw away crops if you need more bulk wax from the volume of seed you get.

Most issue with hardmetal solve quick tbh theu should really push iron deeper and have a solid bronze age and before that a copper age, ig anything hardmetalncomes to fast (we would need softmetal recpies via moulds e.g. tinkerers pick) to round out the system.

Honestly havens biggest problem is speed, the feeling of needing everything done yesterday. Alot of the tedium could be cutdown by just a fee smart changes.
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