Lesser update: Sheep and kin

[Neruz]

Jackard, i understand that there are serious developments on the horizon and soforth, but i have to question the decisions that led to the current domestication system. Yes, the game is in alpha, but it is playable, people are playing it, so why on earth would you partially impliment a system like that which quite effectively buttfucks everyone who isn't a hardcore grinder? It would make far more sense to me to hold onto the system until the next major update and impliment it along with everything else, instead of implimenting it before the other systems to support it exist and breaking a large chunk of the game as a result.

[Jackard]

yeeeaaap.

I've said the same thing before - the odd implementation is nothing new. Guess that's just what happens when its two dudes doing it in their spare time.

[Ajantis]

I have to agree that the game is always more difficult for new players
When i started I wandered for hours searching for a tree, I survived eating perches that i caught with my starting fishing rod.. but new player now don't have a functional fishing rod!
I found an unclaimed dreamcatcher and got enough dreams for my claim, but with the wool becoming a valuable material no one will be throwing away dreamcatchers like they did in the past
I ate lot of carrot cakes to get good PER to find cavebulbs that is the only item every "high level" player wants and is willing to trade for their high Q stuff, but now there's no more butter for noobs
I've spent lot of time and rustroot to find a mine but you can find one only if you can handle X animals, and you need good skills and metal to survive (luckily someone gave me a mine, thanks Chak :-* )
I've made a lot of LP hunting bears from a boat with bow etc etc...

I think the first hours/days should really be easier, not all players have the luck to find someone to help them; A player told me to grind LP with pottery to get Farming, Hunting, Yeomanry and so on or I would have quit playing the first day I started after wandering in search of a tree and food. And for sure new players don't read the newbie guide in the forum, maybe they would read it if it was linked in the homepage
Thinking about my first days, I've been really lucky

[Ajantis]

ops double post ^^"

[Neruz]

The problem i have isn't that the game is difficult, rather that it is getting progressively more difficult for newbies with each update (it seems, anyway.)

I have made games before, certainly not on this scale, but unless something very strange is going on it really should not be that hard to add some sort of alternitive to wool and milk, even if it's just a placeholder until the systems are properly set up and domesticating animals isn't like trying to wrestle a herd of bears without actually hurting said bears.


Basically, the design decisions confuse me. From my perspective they show either a lack of forethought, or a lack of care about the player base. The first is annoying, but solvable with a bit of poking and more experience, the second, however, is extremely worrying.

[Jackard]

Welcome to H&H, man ¯\(º_o)/¯

Our development is fast paced. We do try make it a priority to fix critical problems ASAP. When deciding on numbers for a system like this, It's very hard for us to have a clear idea on a) How much agility does most players have? and b) How far should they be able to travel using that agility? We are really restricted to using guesstimates. Having an opinion on the average agility of the decently developed characters, and relating that agility to the relevant locations those players would want to go to, in terms of distance, is nigh on impossible. (I do not know how far you guys are normally spread out, what kinds of distances you'd like to travel, how often you'd like to do so, and whatnot.) We have to test. In order to test, we need to implement. Testing this in a closed environment is a bullshit idea. That means I'd be the only one doing any serious testing on it (Loftar dicks around a lot when he plays. I'm definitely more of a gamer than he is.) First, I can't do it in a meaningful way, since the game is very much based on a philosophy of emergent gameplay. I do not expect people to cartograph entire regions by their onesises, for example, I expect maps to get copied. Setting up a system of usable Crossroads is a community effort based in the philosophies of rational self interest and emergence, which means I can't test it by myself. I need other players. I need you guys.

A lot of people are obviously scared/angry/whatever about this development, but our ambition with this system is obviously to increase the ability of players to penetrate the map, not reduce it, as I wrote in my wall of text the other day. In the future, It will probably be possible to quick travel to your claim at any time (The reason you can't right now is because of implementaional difficulties, the claims do not save their location) and possibly also to have a "Mark" action, where you can mark a point arbitrarily, and then quick travel there as long as you do not set a new mark, for some quick back and forth between a hunting trip and your camp, for example.

Also, there is a case to be made that some of you have lucked out. You've built camps all across the place, your relevant locations are spread out miles apart, and now you can't really travel between them in a good way. To some extent, this might be as it should be. When building a new camp you'll obviously be able to keep this dimension of the game in mind, and not settle at unreasonable distances. You could consider this broken, but we cannot allow development to institutionalize bad practices just to keep the status quo. Sometimes, the status quo has to be broken for the game to move forward. Obviously that will hurt for some people. I think this is why we still call it an alpha.

Let me be clear: We have several systems in the pipeline that might alter the pace of the game completely. Be a little zen about stuff like this.

This system has several advantages. First, it allows villages to become localized centers of trade and commerce, to which outlying farmers travel, not because they are necessarily members of the village, but in order to use their Crossroads. Second, this system allows *objects* to be insta traveled. Which means you can now trade in anvils, beehives, herbalist tables, and whatever. Third, it removes a lot of boring walking around -- I expect Brodgar to set up Crossroads to Swampcrazed and Cakeport ASAP, for example. Previously, those distances -- which are still very small compared to the total scope of the game world -- were a bitch. Now they could be reduced to a nuisance. Fourth, it does all this while still allowing distance to remain a very important factor.

Our plan was always to make it so that you could reduce weariness by drinking alcohol, and that will, guaranteed, happen next dev session, which is rarely more than half a week or so away. I also see a lot of potential fun in equipment that can make travel easier for you: Ranger's boots might be a good place to start. Traveling with the wind on your back (Wind cape? A potion made from wind?) could also make it easier.

Oh, and about these boats that everyone is bitching about: The problem is not drawing the boats, although that is a bit of work in itself. The problem is making the character sprite capable of interacting with the objects. That workload is huge, and I would like to think it through before I start working on it. I have been thinking about it, and I have drawn some stuff for it, but please understand that boats is a pretty big undertaking.

But I suspected we'd get some heat for this update, it is controversial, and I do feel some of the raeg. I do think most people will come to appreciate this system once its better understood, though. Some people are quick to attack systems they do not understand. I haven't heard anyone complain about steel for a while, and we got shitloads of negative first reactions on that.

We also have a balancer on the black arts that is fairly easy to implement, and should get put in next session, so we haven't forgotten about that either.

viewtopic.php?p=25620#p25620

[Neruz]

Forgive me, but i'm not seeing how that is relevant?

[Haba]

Forgive me, but i'm not seeing how that is relevant?

That probably has something to do with your cognitive skills? Here you go:

We have to test. In order to test, we need to implement. Testing this in a closed environment is a bullshit idea.

The game simply is in a state (alpha) where they probably are not looking for more game testers, and most certainly aren't yet looking for a larger player base. There is absolutely no point in trying to smooth up the start of the game when core game-play elements are facing major upheavals (the main reason why the devs themselves are not even trying to actively maintain the how-to -section). Many of those things will eventually be smoothed out, and probably with very minor adjustments.

In the case of sheep and cows; make milking wild cows or shearing wild sheep possible with some major drawbacks (random chance for failure, low yield, chance for the animal to attack you) -- problem solved! They just cant test this in a closed environment. The best way to evaluate features requiring balancing is to test them in a live environment.

And for christs sake, the game is developed by two guys who are full time students, and yet they manage to do an update every weekend! Let them do things in the order of their preference and hope that they stay motivated through that alone.

Or then just ask for a refund.

[Jeff]

They should introduce more flexible recipes, so that you can still play as a newbie but you can obtain the better results with the hard work. By the way, they may substitute the yarn for the dreamcatcher with some strings and straws.

[Neruz]

You're overreacting a bit there Haba.


The domestication issues should not have required testing to see the ovbious problems involved with making domestication difficult; that of the difficulty in getting the relevant products. I've been playing this for less than a week, yet i could have instantly told you the problems that would crop up when the system was implimented.

Certainly, testing would be needed to get the numbers themselves right, but the simple consequences of making it impossible to get these products without first domesticating the animal in question should be clear and ovbious. Hence why i made the 'lack of foresight' comment, ovbiously i don't know what they're thinking, and i fully expect and hope that they know what they're doing better than it seems right now, but from where i stand it looks very much like the system was implemented without any real thought for the potential consequences of doing so.

Testing is fine, alpha development is fine, neither of those suddenly mean you should start implementing things without first analysing how they fit into the rest of the project as a whole.


Just there, you've given us another way to avoid the problem; even better in that the way you suggested (shear\milk wild animals with drawbacks) was already implimented into the game, since ovbiously if you only get your wool and milk from wild animals the quality is going to be pretty average. So the question i have to ask is "Why hasn't this been done?"