Invulnerable rams

[bitza]

there's really no such thing as an impenetrable hearthvault, the goons and i broke into several places that were commonly thought of as "impenetrable". the only exception being the island brickwall vault, which was removed by jorb. any vault can be smashed if there's nobody to guard it

[Winterbrass]

Yeah, but that's going back to the "you need to be this tall for this ride" deal. This just encourages endless grinding, and we need less motivation for that. IMO a 10000str character should break walls the same way that a 10str character does, the only difference should be how long it takes you to actually break it once you start ramming.

I wholeheartedly disagree and I do not believe that Potjeh fully understands what I am saying. I am specifically referring to the fact that the situation is precisely as he says - the difference between a person with low strength and a person with high strength trying to destroy something is how long it takes. My point was that if you effectively put the strength requirement to punch down walls completely out of someone's reach and make other implements easier to use (picks, axes, et cetera), they will use them. While it is not really reasonable that someone be able to punch down a brick wall, someone should be able to use a pick to take a section down; the main difference between high-strength and low-strength hearthlings would be the time it takes as is currently the case with just about anything else.

[Wolfang]

I think the idea of a ram being in-destructible for, say 24 hours before it dries is good. Thi will give the offense a chance of attacking, on the other hand, this will also allow defenders to prepare against an eventual attack.

The defenders should also be able to ee when the ram will be ready=> They know exactly when they mus lo on.

[Potjeh]

If you got active scents, you're going to check your vault's walls at least once a day, so it can't be broken with a ram.

The problem is that instant breaking of walls kills the whole point of walls. Or do you propose that a strength monster should need 24h to bash down a wall with a pick, in which case what's the point of using that instead of a ram? Do note that when I say hand-bashing I don't mean just bare fists, but also hand-held tools.

[Winterbrass]

The problem is that instant breaking of walls kills the whole point of walls. Or do you propose that a strength monster should need 24h to bash down a wall with a pick, in which case what's the point of using that instead of a ram? Do note that when I say hand-bashing I don't mean just bare fists, but also hand-held tools.

Damaging the walls for one 'rank' of damage (one change of colour) should take a relatively substantial amount of time - something like six to eight hours of bashing with a pick (with the pick being the most advantageous implement aside from the ram) for a strong hearthling who is alone. With multiple people attempting to damage that particular section of the wall, the time would necessarily drop dramatically due to effectively having up to three or four times as many ticks on the wall in the same span of time. This would hardly be instant, would give defenders an opportunity to respond (holy shit guise, four buddies beating on our wall!), and is still comparable to a ram, depending on the number of attackers.

Long story short, the entire method in which walls, soak, and strength are interrelated was poorly thought-out and needs to be fixed to make hand-bashing an option with high time cost.

ETA: I differentiate between tools as tools have... you know, different uses. Picks should be poor against wooden objects and better against stone or brick objects, and the converse should be true with axes. Hands should be good against nothing. Et cetera.

[Zirikana]

A point that seems close to being lost in the discussion here is the psychological impact of effort or risk vs. reward. I mean, it should be painfully difficult, and very dangerous, to break into a village or fort. The longer it takes, and the riskier it is, then the greater the feeling of military triumph when the walls finally do break and the siege is successful. Let's face it, the overthrow of a fortified town by brute force is a very, very dramatic thing, not to be undertaken lightly, but ohhhh so sweet when successful (or bitter, if you're on the inside of the walls). Sure, being a more advanced village should give a huge increase in the success rate in pillaging, but it should never be a given to be able to safely breach walls on demand without a lot of preparation and effort, even for the strongest players and villages. I like the idea brought up earlier about different grades of rams. We have different walls, why not different rams?

I, however, am merely a lonely hermit farmer with no dreams of battlefield grandeur, but it's nice to think about sometimes.

[Gauteamus]

The problem is that instant breaking of walls kills the whole point of walls. Or do you propose that a strength monster should need 24h to bash down a wall with a pick, in which case what's the point of using that instead of a ram? Do note that when I say hand-bashing I don't mean just bare fists, but also hand-held tools.

Damaging the walls for one 'rank' of damage (one change of colour) should take a relatively substantial amount of time - something like six to eight hours of bashing with a pick (with the pick being the most advantageous implement aside from the ram) for a strong hearthling who is alone. With multiple people attempting to damage that particular section of the wall, the time would necessarily drop dramatically due to effectively having up to three or four times as many ticks on the wall in the same span of time. This would hardly be instant, would give defenders an opportunity to respond (holy shit guise, four buddies beating on our wall!), and is still comparable to a ram, depending on the number of attackers.

Long story short, the entire method in which walls, soak, and strength are interrelated was poorly thought-out and needs to be fixed to make hand-bashing an option with high time cost.

ETA: I differentiate between tools as tools have... you know, different uses. Picks should be poor against wooden objects and better against stone or brick objects, and the converse should be true with axes. Hands should be good against nothing. Et cetera.

It is abit hard to judge your idea when you are not more exact. In this idea, the actual number of hours you think a strong character should use to take down a wall is important. Let us assume we are talking about a character with the correct hand held/instant tools at hand.
You say that a strong hearthling should use 6-8 hours to damage a segment one rank - meaning the whole segment goes down after 3-4 ranks = 24 hours.
In this case, why not use a ram?
How does the time spent taking down a segment change with increasing strength? What is the strenght of the strong character in your example?

You then say that the time cost should drop dramatically if multiple characters chop.
How does this drop change with the number of chars? Their Strengths? How many can chop at the same segment at the same time?

You suggested to divide the damage by 100 for brick walls? What should the hp and blocking values of the different walls be?

[Repercussionist]

If he doesn't meet you in battle, what have you got to worry about anyways? >.< It should be harder to break into a village than to defend one. I'll admit that I would like to more, and more advanced warfare, but I don't think this is the solution we need.

By that logic, we should just remove scents altogether. Because hearth vaults make them more or less useless.

Walls are intended to protect
people. Hearthvaults are just
an abuse of that system. Don't
make walls entirely useless
because a few people vault hearths.

[Winterbrass]

It is abit hard to judge your idea when you are not more exact. In this idea, the actual number of hours you think a strong character should use to take down a wall is important. Let us assume we are talking about a character with the correct hand held/instant tools at hand.
You say that a strong hearthling should use 6-8 hours to damage a segment one rank - meaning the whole segment goes down after 3-4 ranks = 24 hours.
In this case, why not use a ram?

If an individual was attempting to take down the wall section on his or her own, the main benefit would be stamina/hunger drain and increased food consumption. The penalty would be that it would be labour intensive and not really all that fire-and-forget like a ram currently is.

How does the time spent taking down a segment change with increasing strength? What is the strenght of the strong character in your example? You then say that the time cost should drop dramatically if multiple characters chop.
How does this drop change with the number of chars? Their Strengths? How many can chop at the same segment at the same time?

Well, lets start with the last question first: As many as can physically fit at the wall. With careful positioning, I imagine that a maximum of four would be able to attack a particular section of wall at one time.

As for how the time changes with the number of characters and their strengths, it works as one would expect - just like construction, each person is contributing to the overall 'completion'.

The definition of 'strong' is highly variable as I am currently uncertain of what would be a valid number.

The time spent taking down a segment as a function of strength would roughly approximate an asymptomatic curve where the lower limit is 10 and the upper limit is the 'strong' strength, where having strength beyond that point would provide no real benefit.

You suggested to divide the damage by 100 for brick walls? What should the hp and blocking values of the different walls be?

As I mentioned, using bare fists on brick walls (hand-bashing? ) should do only 1% of what the normal damage would be before it even hits soak. With a pick, more of the damage would be permitted to go through, while axes would be better than fists and less beneficial than picks. So when you ask about HP and blocking values, the blocking values would be dependent on the implement used. This would then demand information on the damage, and that would demand that 'strong' be defined, and as I have mentioned, I do not currently know what a valid definition would be at this current point in time.

[BWithey]

Frankly, I think it should be impossible to break Palisades or Brick walls with your bare hands..

I want to see there be some kind of other HP system for them, which is like "Structural Damage" and requires a Pick-Ax (At greatly reduced damage) or siege equipment to penetrate/go over.