Developer Thoughts on PvP

[MagicManICT]

I try not to think "realism" belongs in a game, although in HnH it fits better than most. I find a real world precedent makes more sense, then people can understand why something happens.

Actually, realism creeps into just about any game on some level. Without any realism, we'd have little connection on how to actually play the game. I've seen some of these games. They are bizarre to say the least. Even then, they don't get rid of everything.

[Jackard]

sometimes when people mention realism what they mean is simulation

[Kavalion]

When one adopts and understands this perspective, it becomes clear as sparkling morning dew on a well mowed lawn that there does not exist a clear divide between offensive and peaceful actions.

Obviously, the divide is that a peaceful act would be occupying a tile that no one has interest in. If someone develops an interest in the tile, the peaceful act is to move from it and occupy another tile. Peaceful action is simply accommodating the will of others. Taken to the extreme, if their will is to crucify you, then you martyr yourself. This, of course, reinforces the point that it is not possible to deny PvP and remain peaceful.

[Pictor]

The problem with "realism" as a problem solver in MMOs is that all MMOs share a single unremovable unrealistic trait: Specifically, the separation of player and avatar.


In the real world, there are a few barriers to "exit"; Firstly, you don't know what happens after you die. Secondly, it's final; You can't come back in a new body. Thirdly, most people have a general reluctance to die hardwired into them. None of these things exist in an MMO.

Then there's the whole aspect of not being able to be in control of our body at all times. In the real world, we sleep. We can be awoken. In an MMO, if you don't have access to a computer, you can not be awoken. You don't sleep in a house, you simply shift into stasis and cease to exist. In HnH, your body can be pulled from the ether and killed via scents, but you're still not "awake"; It's like pulling somebody from stasis to find they're in a coma.

What makes matters worse is that a lack of barrier to exit means that players won't put up with much shit. There are no starving africans or slaves in MMOs. If they're not enjoying themselves, they'll simply leave. This is one of the massively overlooked reasons why old school UO actually survived as long as it did; Because there was no other choice. If you wanted to play an MMO, there it was. Once a choice was presented (Everquest, namely) the slaves and sheep who were tired of being shat on simply left for greener pastures.

Finally, a player who wants to hang around, will. You won't be able to get rid of them. The only way to kill somebody in an MMO is to make them want to die.


The point of all this is that it throws off a lot of traditional solutions. Fear of retribution is severely weakened, meaning it's effectively impossible to discourage people who are determined to be assholes. Also, execution doesn't serve as long term protection. The guy can just come on back in a new body if he wants. At best, you inconvenience him.

The ultimate issue with this is that if you have a poor system, you drive off a lot of people. Some of the more tenacious fans are so thick that they see the bleeding of players who don't agree with them as a good thing. The assumed goal of any MMO is to cater to the developer's desires. Usually, "having a large playerbase" is one of those desires. It can be secondary to other desires, but it's still significant. Incidentally, is it just me, or is the active playerbase about half the size that it was at the end of world 4? Whatever, I'm rambling.


Don't fool yourselves; Haven and Hearth is not, in fact, lawless. Lawless would mean no claims and no scents. No, Haven and Hearth follows a very simple rule:

First Come, First Serve.

Consequences exist purely for those who seek to violate that rule. Scents are left in violation of that rule. It doesn't matter why you did what you did. All that matters is that you violated that rule. He laid a claim there. He found that rock first. He decided to stand there before you arrived. He was there first, and that's all that matters. Scents are simply consequences for contesting that rule. The fact is, a swarm of newbies can block in a player anyway. A sufficiently advanced player may indeed be able to kill those who do, but the game still treats him as if he violated the golden rule.

The key which separates HnH from most MMOs is that you CAN break its golden rule (with enough LP, at least).

And that's the real beef of it. You have your rules, and those rules can either be broken or not, and if you can break the rule, it must have consequences. Two things define the rule: How difficult it is to break, and, assuming you can break it, how severe are the consequences? In HnH, the difficulty of breaking the rule depends on the action (murder, theft). The consequence severity depends on how severely you broke the rule. In WoW, you can't break the golden rule when it comes to people on your faction. In Eve, you can break the rule anywhere, and the consequences depend on where you break the rule. And then there's war declaration and what have you.

HnH actually has a very, very simple ruleset. And it could be expanded. Village vs Village Warfare, for example, as a means of altering (or removing) the consequences of violating the golden rule. Retribution allowing trespassing and theft in order to recover stolen goods without consequence. But these are just thoughts off the top of my head.

The main point is to realize that the rules do exist, and they can be tampered with.

This wall of text has gone on too long.

[sabinati]

what, you don't think there is village vs village warfare?

[Pictor]

what, you don't think there is village vs village warfare?

Not in any way that the game actually recognizes as such, no. I think you missed the points I was trying to make.

[Potjeh]

So much words, so little content. Son, you should go into politics.

[Pictor]

So much words, so little content.

Most of the content in my post is pretty high level design stuff; It's not really the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate. I'm an obsessive nut, and I'm terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level. Sorry about that.

[MagicManICT]

So much words, so little content.

Most of the content in my post is pretty high level design stuff; It's not really the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate. I'm an obsessive nut, and I'm terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level. Sorry about that.

Potjeh is right. The first sentence is the killer for the whole post. Are you trying to speak to a group of gamers or a psychology/sociology class?

[Skorm]

So much words, so little content.

Most of the content in my post is pretty high level design stuff; It's not really the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate. I'm an obsessive nut, and I'm terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level. Sorry about that.

Potjeh is right. The first sentence is the killer for the whole post. Are you trying to speak to a group of gamers or a psychology/sociology class?

he wants to blow Newb´s Mind