Ainran still burning - PV clean up crew cleans PV

[leah]

I will read that pdf file, before commenting on it.

As for the second paragraph: did you miss the part about "playing within the game rules"? Theft and murder are accepted within H&H's game rules, but they are not accepted within the rules in real life.

Wrong, theft and murder are exist as options within the game mechanic of both H&H and Real Life. I would no more except the random application of these mechanics to innocents or strangers in H&H than I would in real life.

If you recall, this game is a simulation of the Iron Age of Europe, also known as the Migration Period that followed after the fall of Rome. Without a governing authority people of low moral character ran rampant until an authority once again rose to bring some stability to the area.

Encouraging the barbaric behavior is just as bad as committing it yourself.

If you'd like to read...

http://wordsonplay.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... sychology/
http://www.igi-global.com/book/ethics-game-design/37269 <~~~ this costs $180.00, see if you can get it from your library
http://udini.proquest.com/view/an-inves ... 507754381/

So in a FPS, "shooting other people" is just an option?

[burgingham]

Seriously you are the worst shitposter this forum has seen in a while and this means something considering most people here are shitposters. Cut it out with your constant trolling.

Edit: Until there are psychological studies proving a connection between how one plays a game within the game rules and their real life personality and ethical values, you ought to not draw any drastic conclusions regarding the persons behind the characters.

It is funny you mention that since Avu studies psychology and has recently posted a questionaire on the exact topic here in the forums since it helped him with his studies on said topic

[leah]

So you agree to play a game with certain rules, and then when they do something that you don't like within the game rules, you go all QQing? Are you sure you should even be playing this game?

Edit: Until there are psychological studies proving a connection between how one plays a game within the game rules and their real life personality and ethical values, you ought to not draw any drastic conclusions regarding the persons behind the characters.

STFU. http://www.ethicapublishing.com/ethical/3CH12.pdf

Show the ability to compromise on decent behavior in a game with permideath = poor morals and ethics in real life. You know real life has game rules for theft and murder as well, some folks like to play that side of the game of life. A dude just did it to an entire movie theater. Are the victim's family just shitty players in the game of life, or is the shooter a douchbag that deserves the worst kind of punishment?

Oh, and btw - that's just one study. I can bury you in material if you like.

I can now comment on that pdf and a partial response will be through a quote in that pdf:

"Some play violent games and become aggressive, while others are not
affected because they know it is just a game meant for entertainment."

Which reinforces my point regarding playing within the game rules and how it is connected to real life personality.

[Ogrim]

So in a FPS, "shooting other people" is just an option?

Think about that for a moment. FPS stands for First Person Shooter. The point of the game IS to shoot people, it's not a simulation of what real warfare is like. Nor is it applicable to this conversation.

Haven & Hearth is a simulation of life during the iron ages. It has mechanics for everything from growing plants to building villages to honoring the ancestors. Combat is just one aspect of the game, NOT the focus of the game.

You knew the answer to that question the moment you asked it and the question itself is not applicable. Apples and Oranges.

This is a game about how one would live their life. Plain and simple. If someone proves untrustworthy in this game, I would sincerely question the caliber of their ethics and morality in the real world as well. "Getting your rocks off" on the suffering of others isn't something consigned to just a gaming environment. It's a sad character flaw.

[Ogrim]

I can now comment on that pdf and a partial response will be through a quote in that pdf:

"Some play violent games and become aggressive, while others are not
affected because they know it is just a game meant for entertainment."

Which reinforces my point regarding playing within the game rules and how it is connected to real life personality.

Again, you focus on violence. The question is ethics. Let me make this easy for you. Short things you can quote:

Breaking trust in H&H is no different than breaking your word in real life.

Since breaking one's word while engaged in a game is akin to cheating in that game, it is reasonable for the person to suffer out of game repercussions for such behavior. (This is what the original complaint was about I believe.)

In real life, people get stabbed, beat and shot for cheating in a game of cards. Instead of money being on the table, it's a person's time and effort (not an insubstantial amount of each). Thus, I feel it unwise to act in a dishonest nature in this game. The consequences could be more than you bargained for.

[leah]

So in a FPS, "shooting other people" is just an option?

Think about that for a moment. FPS stands for First Person Shooter. The point of the game IS to shoot people, it's not a simulation of what real warfare is like. Nor is it applicable to this conversation.

Haven & Hearth is a simulation of life during the iron ages. It has mechanics for everything from growing plants to building villages to honoring the ancestors. Combat is just one aspect of the game, NOT the focus of the game.

You knew the answer to that question the moment you asked it and the question itself is not applicable. Apples and Oranges.

This is a game about how one would live their life. Plain and simple. If someone proves untrustworthy in this game, I would sincerely question the caliber of their ethics and morality in the real world as well. "Getting your rocks off" on the suffering of others isn't something consigned to just a gaming environment. It's a sad character flaw.

Or, the game is simply a role-playing game with a set of rules. Your choice to self-impose certain ethical rules within a game is allowed, but don't assume that just because you do it, other people who don't are automatically douchebags in real life as well.

[Ogrim]

Or, the game is simply a role-playing game with a set of rules. Your choice to self-impose certain ethical rules within a game is allowed, but don't assume that just because you do it, other people who don't are automatically douchebags in real life as well.

How much REAL LIFE time does it take to make a brick wall? How much REAL LIFE time does it take to get a hearthling into 100+ on his skills/stats? How much REAL LIFE effort goes into building an alliance of people to work toward a common goal?

You keep talking about a 'game'. I keep seeing REAL LIFE investments being worked with. Thus my ethics are self imposed 'in the game' just as they are self imposed 'in real life'. You keep advocating there is a difference. I keep telling you I'd not wreck you're village for no reason just as much as I'd not key your car or crap on your porch in real life.

Ethics and morality exist in game and out seemlessly. There is not a disconnect.

[burgingham]

Or, the game is simply a role-playing game with a set of rules. Your choice to self-impose certain ethical rules within a game is allowed, but don't assume that just because you do it, other people who don't are automatically douchebags in real life as well.

Your first mistake is imposing an arbitrary line between real life and the game. The social interactions within this game have to be classified as real by any sociologic standard.

Furthermore people invest real time in the game and they pour real commitment into it. The relationships they form often go beyond what is happening in game as exactly this thread and its recent turn of event shows. If you deny all these facts as many of the reckless playerkillers do then yes you show real signs of a sociopath since you are unable to find any empathy for what other players have invested their time and emotions into.

As usual I have to mention that most of those playerkillers also broke the imposed set of in game rules more than one time to commit their crimes, which you conveniently forget.

The problem then gets even bigger when the logical chain of interactions is taken the other way around and in game events cause people to feel real hate or similar feelings towards the ones harming them. Very understandable though if we again look at the real investment into the game our before mentioned sociopaths chose to destroy.

[leah]

I can now comment on that pdf and a partial response will be through a quote in that pdf:

"Some play violent games and become aggressive, while others are not
affected because they know it is just a game meant for entertainment."

Which reinforces my point regarding playing within the game rules and how it is connected to real life personality.

Again, you focus on violence. The question is ethics. Let me make this easy for you. Short things you can quote:

Breaking trust in H&H is no different than breaking your word in real life.

Since breaking one's word while engaged in a game is akin to cheating in that game, it is reasonable for the person to suffer out of game repercussions for such behavior. (This is what the original complaint was about I believe.)

In real life, people get stabbed, beat and shot for cheating in a game of cards. Instead of money being on the table, it's a person's time and effort (not an insubstantial amount of each). Thus, I feel it unwise to act in a dishonest nature in this game. The consequences could be more than you bargained for.

The pdf, you linked to, focuses on violence, ratings, educational paradigm, stereotyping and addiction. Violence is an important aspect of ethics.

Cheating in a game would be to break the rules of the game; therefore, in a game where there are no rules against breaking one's word, it would not be akin to cheating in that game.

It is however, reasonable that the players suffers repercussions related to the game for such behavior. Keywords being "related to the game".

Breaking trust in H&H is very different from breaking your word in real life or do you condemn all the players who ever used lies to avoid a dangerous situation in H&H?

[leah]

Or, the game is simply a role-playing game with a set of rules. Your choice to self-impose certain ethical rules within a game is allowed, but don't assume that just because you do it, other people who don't are automatically douchebags in real life as well.

How much REAL LIFE time does it take to make a brick wall? How much REAL LIFE time does it take to get a hearthling into 100+ on his skills/stats? How much REAL LIFE effort goes into building an alliance of people to work toward a common goal?

You keep talking about a 'game'. I keep seeing REAL LIFE investments being worked with. Thus my ethics are self imposed 'in the game' just as they are self imposed 'in real life'. You keep advocating there is a difference. I keep telling you I'd not wreck you're village for no reason just as much as I'd not key your car or crap on your porch in real life.

Ethics and morality exist in game and out seemlessly. There is not a disconnect.

That's the problem, you don't seem to grasp that the rules of a game are of importance to see whether or not something is ethical. For instance, it is not okay in real life to shoot or kill another person, but in many games that is completely acceptable because it is allowed by the rules. If you don't like the rules, you have the right to not participate in the game.

There is indeed a disconnect, which is easily shown through how we treat shooting and killing other characters compared to how we treat shooting and killing other people in real life.

Just because you choose to spend a lot of your time playing a game, it doesn't mean that the game automatically becomes like real life and that all ethical rules seeminglessly are carried over to the game.