Guilds vs free trade?

[kimya]

jorb ranting eh...
against postmodernism, well...
against environmentalism and multiculturalism ... not so

[loftar]

I'd like to ask for some clarifications on your statements, if you don't mind.

First of all I am not vetarnian, but I guess you knew that jorb. Second of all I wouldn't say I get a bad vibe, or dislike your opinions, since they are opinions, I respect them since you seem like a respectable person. (people do prove me wrong sometimes though. But I don't like to judge people unless I have reason to.)

I am curious: What do you really mean when you say that you "respect" an opinion? Though you don't say it clearly, it seems obvious enough that you don't agree, but since you don't actually respond (so far as I can see, at least), it is hard to deduce what you actually mean. It almost seems to me to mean that you merely do not actively dislike the opinion. Would that be about right? And, in that case, how is the issue of respect relevant?

Statement: I never said I was communist or liked one.

I will admit to having had some trouble parsing the finer details of your sentences, but I found the sentence fragment "[...]the economic solution like market/planned economy[...]" telling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it means that you do not actually believe that any one of communism or liberalism is an "economic solution", but rather that you believe in one of those "third ways" -- a mix and match between the two ideologies, right?

Some people likes to look at the economic solution like market/planned economy as seperate to any ideas about equality and fraternity.

This was one of the sentences that I had trouble parsing. Does it mean you consider "ideas about equality and fraternity" to be an essential part of economics? And, in that case, how? I just do not see how those concepts relate to economics at all (except as part of the underlying societal order on which it builds).

[Fetdaniel]

These points are good, but I personally was never thinking that there would be a Guild Hoard(tm) and bulkselling of some kind of community pool. I was just thinking of a guild of miners who could agree that selling cast iron for so and so much phirozkis would gain them all.

In which case my points all still apply, you're simply reducing your stock and you're being overly restrictive on what you accept in exchange...

Main point I wanted to get across is that if you want it to happen you need to pound the ground (with your feet) and talk to the miners and their customers directly to get this set up.

Posting a thread out of no-where on the forum saying "hey guys wouldn't it be neat if we unionized" is fine for a bit of intellectual debate, but it's not going to result in anything actually happening.

Main point taken, its not really a surprise. Which in turn shouldn't be a surprise for you that it doesn't surprise me. Anything other would be truly surprising..

[Dondy]

I don't use market stands because I don't have a clue how I could get the coins to buy anything. Furthermore I don't know the price of anything, so it is easiest to do without anything I can't make or which my friends give me. I don't want coins since they would fill my inventory and the only safe place to put things is in inventory. That inventory slot is pretty much more precious than anything I could put into it. I'd give away 100 copper coins to ensure I always had three inventory slots empty.

Worse, I undermine the economy by giving stuff away as much as I can. I don't produce anything special of course, so mostly I give to newer players. The way I see it, if I make stuff I get lp which I like, but if I make a surplus I have to get rid of it somehow and throwing it away seems wasteful... When I do make a trade I set the price extremely low, since it is really a token price.

The only time I ever got approached by someone randomly about possibilities of trade, it was a guy named "Himmler" checking if I had anything valuable enough to swap for a Loftar's Lembas and somehow I picked up the instant idea that he was more casing the joint than actually trying to make a sale. I'm extremely leery of picking up trades on irc or in forum due to the trust factor. I only do it if I've read several posts by the person wanting the trade and have decided they are not likely to be a robber.

It's people like me that are breaking the back of your trade system.

The only thing I can suggest is a place where people can post the details of deals they have made. That way if I trade two baskets of bread for one cast iron and you traded half a basket I can get an idea of how bad a deal it was for next time. Of course even a database like this would not be much use, since I assume people would lie in the hope of fixing prices.

[theTrav]

Main point taken, its not really a surprise. Which in turn shouldn't be a surprise for you that it doesn't surprise me. Anything other would be truly surprising..

I am curious: What do you really mean when you say that you "respect" an opinion?

In my experience "I respect your opinion" is the hippies way of saying "I lack the courage to disagree with you openly, so I'll passively aggressively ignore that you have that opinion"

[Chakravanti]

It's people like me that are breaking the back of your trade system.

Hardly. I understand your paranoia but you do not have near the influence you think you do. Particularly if you do not produce metal.

I am curious: What do you really mean when you say that you "respect" an opinion?

In my experience "I respect your opinion" is the hippies way of saying "I lack the courage to disagree with you openly, so I'll passively aggressively ignore that you have that opinion"

It might also be that he disagrees but is at least self-aware enough to know that he hasn't the ability to form a rational counter argument. It doesn't mean that one doesn't exist, just that he doesn't have the capability to produce it, or at least do so in the amount of time his compulsion to reply allows him.

[Fetdaniel]

I am curious: What do you really mean when you say that you "respect" an opinion?

In my experience "I respect your opinion" is the hippies way of saying "I lack the courage to disagree with you openly, so I'll passively aggressively ignore that you have that opinion"

It might also be that he disagrees but is at least self-aware enough to know that he hasn't the ability to form a rational counter argument. It doesn't mean that one doesn't exist, just that he doesn't have the capability to produce it, or at least do so in the amount of time his compulsion to reply allows him.[/quote]

Since everybody is so curious i must say its about thread preservation.

[Fetdaniel]

Main point taken, its not really a surprise. Which in turn shouldn't be a surprise for you that it doesn't surprise me. Anything other would be truly surprising..

I am curious: What do you really mean when you say that you "respect" an opinion?

In my experience "I respect your opinion" is the hippies way of saying "I lack the courage to disagree with you openly, so I'll passively aggressively ignore that you have that opinion"

Deliberate misunderstanding, for the lack of better motive, seems to be what you are going for? Would you please correct me if Im wrong?

Have you never gotten a really big answer that was totally of topic that you didn't answer it immediatly?

[Fetdaniel]

I'd like to ask for some clarifications on your statements, if you don't mind.

First of all I am not vetarnian, but I guess you knew that jorb. Second of all I wouldn't say I get a bad vibe, or dislike your opinions, since they are opinions, I respect them since you seem like a respectable person. (people do prove me wrong sometimes though. But I don't like to judge people unless I have reason to.)

I am curious: What do you really mean when you say that you "respect" an opinion? Though you don't say it clearly, it seems obvious enough that you don't agree, but since you don't actually respond (so far as I can see, at least), it is hard to deduce what you actually mean. It almost seems to me to mean that you merely do not actively dislike the opinion. Would that be about right? And, in that case, how is the issue of respect relevant?

Respecting someone is the opposite of getting angry and calling people names, alot of people on forums can't handle that different people think different things. I think will find if you look at what i commonly write i usually define some sort of angle, which is not just a summery of my opinion but more of discussion. I like to say more than just: I think we should start a guild we farmers, yeah, deal? Its just my preference. I must say I am curious why about why would you want me to clarify my reasoning? Yep not actively dislike is what im doing, I do not agree on the concept, but I will certainly not spoil this thread with such a detour about why i disagree. Saying just I disagree seemed insufficient somehow, and irrelevant.

The issue of respect is that regardless of people's opinions, ethnicity, sex and whatnot, I see them as people that deserve a minimum of respect at least. This is like setting the bar for the thread. But i won't go into the semantics on this one, I think its obvious now what I mean..

Statement: I never said I was communist or liked one.

I will admit to having had some trouble parsing the finer details of your sentences, but I found the sentence fragment "[...]the economic solution like market/planned economy[...]" telling. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it means that you do not actually believe that any one of communism or liberalism is an "economic solution", but rather that you believe in one of those "third ways" -- a mix and match between the two ideologies, right?

Well what real way isn't a third way today? The two "pure" ideologies are more topics for debate than actual plans for a society, they both include philosophical problems and assumtions. So yes.

Some people likes to look at the economic solution like market/planned economy as seperate to any ideas about equality and fraternity.

This was one of the sentences that I had trouble parsing. Does it mean you consider "ideas about equality and fraternity" to be an essential part of economics? And, in that case, how? I just do not see how those concepts relate to economics at all (except as part of the underlying societal order on which it builds).

Well in essense I am saying they are not the same thing. Ideas that people are equal and any idea about how society should give people responsibilities and rights can be and often is seperated in political discussion.

[loftar]

Unfortunately, I have to get to bed too soon, so I don't have time to formulate a more complete answer, but:

I must say I am curious why about why would you want me to clarify my reasoning?

Because I was very curious about how you, yourself, was thinking about it. You may say that I was using you as a test subject in an anthropological study that I am conducting. I was currently formulating a theory regarding the implicit logical structure that could manifest itself in "respecting opinions", and you offered me a rare chance to verify or falsify it. Thank you. (So far, I consider your reply an emphatic verification of the major parts of the theory.)

Btw., just to verify: You mention topic preservation as a motive for brushing Jorb off, but your reply of 1:42 UTC was a confirmation that the thread has outlived its original purpose and does not need to be kept on track anymore, right?

Now I need to sleep, but again, thanks!

EDIT: One more thing:

Well in essense I am saying they are not the same thing.

What does "they" refer to? I find it ambiguous.