Nourishment System to Replace FEP System

[LadyV]

Sorry but I do not like the idea. I have to agree with Xcom.

At least he tried.

Yes he did but most ideas in this thread are subject to community scrutiny to refine them for viable suggestions.

[slipper]

The gear loss is already some heavy punishment, even more so for new players that don't have the industry.

If people are worrying about characters coming right back to fighting conditon, a temporary debuff that decreases over time could also be applied after a player inherit their old stats.

[Vaku]

I may have allowed myself to be unknowingly influenced by this image. There are likely few similarities aside from percentages being shown.
Also, tl;dr, skip to "Grind" Proposal to be Used w/ Nourishment.

Perhaps a tweak to the current one limiting the intake of food. It would work by the emphasis being on the best quality food not the most quantity. It would slow start growth but not remove it entirely....

Time since meal * meal size = satiation. A sort of replacement for hunger bar.... Some things would make it go down faster but only until a point, with diminishing returns. To shift focus to making q tables and q food not quantity.

Quality versus quantity is definitely something I would hope a reworked attribute system adopts. The way it is right now, it gives people carpal tunnel, how farm to table works, and I feel it distracts from so much more of the game. I don’t appear to acknowledge that at all in the OP and thank you for bringing it up.

I think this idea is prone to abuse to another level altogether. People would just stockpile cheese and grind there combat toons back to max after death.

Remove the incentive to grind and people will waste no time fighting and dilute the pvp mechanics to a point where its no longer any rarity.

In retrospect, what I feel was the most intriguing part of this proposed system is that it allows the character, its attributes specifically, to become atrophied.

This sort of atrophy can exist as paired with another system, which builds distances between New and Old characters, such as “Training,” for lack of a better term.

For instance, it’s one thing to eat well, but to build that Muscle (STR), you must engage yourself. This way, raising an attribute is not completely tied to what you eat. It is tied to Nourishment and performance. In this sense, the grind can be maintained to the player’s labor of dominantly one character, and makes it so that any additional and comparable character to any player's main, will have been a character earned from truly playing and participating in the “Grind.”

The “Grind” w/ Current FEP System:

The grind which we experience today, regarding attributes, is tied very closely to the Hunger & Stamina Bars, and sometimes the SHP/HHP Bar. The idea is to deplete as much of the Hunger Bar as possible, to then fill it subsequently with as much food, with as many FEP increasing bonuses, as possible.

When a surplus of food exists (and sometimes when it does not) players will purposefully deplete their character’s hunger bars predominately in this way, with or without the accompaniment of botting scripts:

Draining Hunger Commonly Involves Characters who
(1) On Paved Tiles, Grassland, Heath, Moor, Mountain, or Beach
(2) Activate Sprint and sprint back and forth (w/ Milestone arrangement, botting script, or manually), lowering their stamina rapidly
(3) and Recover that stamina by drinking Quality 10 water that in turn lowers hunger, rapidly.

Then, at a Table & Bonfire
(1) Smoke 1-2 buds of Hemp, providing 90-100% Hunger Modifier to Food
(2) Drink Wine & Equip Charisma Increasing equipment, i.e. Party Hat or Cylinder Hat
(3) Light Bonfire and commence eating, raising an attribute by 10's of points.

The above method of raising attributes, and doing that process, or an adaptation of it religiously, is the current "Grind" that we have. After gorging on sausages and pies, players gorge on stored cheeses, which still recalls the same fear that Xcom expressed earlier,

...People would just stockpile cheese and grind there combat toons back....

How then do we provide ourselves with an enjoyable grind? "Training" which I hinted at earlier could be a solution. It would incentivize that players actually play aspects of the game they like to progress rather than become bogged down with eating habits.

I propose that raising an attribute, by training, occurs in close relationship with activities using Skill Values. Skill Values are your Unarmed Combat, Melee Combat, Cooking, Farming and other values. All of these skill values have actions that make use of a governing attribute that is used in combat or in the soft/hard-capping of a product, with the exception of Carpentry.

"Grind" Proposal to be Used w/ Nourishment

Training through Nourishment may work in such a way that Characters,
(1) through committing actions with skills, queue up points towards raising an attribute.
(2) Over time, their Nourishment values are slowly being consumed/converted into the actual adjustment of their attributes' values.
(3) Nourishment is replenished at the table or on the go.

Simultaneously
player actions are being influenced loosely by stamina.

Players, with implementation of penalty, might be harmed for exerting themselves. It could be done in such away that there is a peak where the Nourishment-Training relation gives the greatest exchange to an attribute, but in pushing too many actions, the attribute does not become as enhanced as it could've been, and not committing any actions at all could result in atrophy of certain attributes.

(This provides similar Limit on activity as Hunger does in our current system. I.e. Mining does not occur if you are in Starvation w/ no food, despite having the Stamina & Water to complete the action. Here, you will not overexert your character if it does not mean a beneficial balance of character growth.

To lower exertion would mean going to another activity that does not use the same governing attribute, and passively letting that overly-exerted attribute rest. Players will also obtain multi-disciplinary characters this way by combating the boredom incurred through an 'overexertion' penalty.)

Between New & Old Characters
The proposal makes use of the below items which build distance between New and Old characters, in terms of attributes.

Number of Actions Comitted
Availability of Nourishing Foods
Time
Penalty to Overexertion

While at the same time, Nourishment percentages per the first suggestion reign in end-game attributes closer together so that new players might still be competitive.

[Lord_of_War]

Sorry but I do not like the idea. I have to agree with Xcom.

At least he tried.

Yes he did but most ideas in this thread are subject to community scrutiny to refine them for viable suggestions.

I gave my idea and I'm ready to hear yours.

[Xcom]

All you would need to do would be to simply make the current system as it stands right now to be detached from the stamina bar and adding a simple timer to reduce hunger on a steady rate. It would become something similar to the curio system but slightly different. People could only eat a certain amount of food per day giving a more meaningful approach to quality over quantity.

This new idea just brings everything back to W3 with bots grinding up LP from actions preformed which bots over and over have proven to be masters of. Instead of LP you would grind hunger again using bots.

[LadyV]

I gave my idea and I'm ready to hear yours.

Commenting on a suggestion does not require a counter idea. I provided an opinion and a reference to Xcom's statement as being similar to mine own thoughts. That is sufficient.

Now can we stop this charade of dogging comments needlessly?

[Vaku]

adding a simple timer to reduce hunger on a steady rate.... People could only eat a certain amount of food per day giving a more meaningful approach to quality over quantity.

Though in doing that, and that alone, no other problems with attributes or the FEP system are addressed.

This new idea just brings everything back to W3 with bots grinding up LP from actions preformed which bots over and over have proven to be masters of. Instead of LP you would grind hunger again using bots.

That is a broad oversimplification of what I presented. What the above quoted comment does not address is in part what you've suggested, that "a simple timer" be used. And in the case of the proposal, the timer is used in conjunction with the Nourishment-to-Attribute Consumption/Conversion. Where actions come in, is in the queuing of points that are over time converted into actual attribute values. Committing too many actions incurs slight penalty and committing too few actions, gauged while online, causes atrophy.

Sure, a bot can be developed for the actions, though would still need to be a script far more complicated to complete considering that the actions, as proposed, accrue points towards only the attributes which govern those skills.

Far more difficult a system to bot than using our Current FEP system and just having a bot triggered to eat a cheese every hour while you're away at work or school.

Digging clay repeatedly for 18+ hours a day to raise all of your attributes a la World 3 will definitely not be possible with what I proposed, especially if actions that are fun to do in person are what provide the greatest benefit to the governing attribute.

I.e. Hunting w/ Marksmanship puts points towards Perception; Live Combat, and to a lesser extent, sparring, putting points towards Strength, Constitution and Agility; Cooking puts points towards Dexterity and Constitution. Imagine, what if socializing and doing a bit of talking ingame put a few points towards Charisma, and despite there being greater ways to raising charisma like leading a party or attending a feast, people will still be rewarded a bit for socializing?

Keep in mind, with all the above examples, such a feature as 'overexertion' would dissuade people from pushing too hard on any one action. There will always be the min-maxer looking to get the most out of the system, and that's fun for them, but more importantly, what's fun to most is a system that rewards them from actually playing and being exposed to the game than a very narrowly engaging FEP system.

It would become something similar to the curio system but slightly different.

I have some reservations about the curio system as well, but that's for another thread.

[Lord_of_War]

I gave my idea and I'm ready to hear yours.

Commenting on a suggestion does not require a counter idea. I provided an opinion and a reference to Xcom's statement as being similar to mine own thoughts. That is sufficient.

Now can we stop this charade of dogging comments needlessly?

Its because I see this as a discussion. Need is rather deterministic. It was harsh of me to provoke a counter proposal, but its merely because I am tired of such criticism being so one sided. If the intent is to block change then by all means its working. These threads to often devolve into a pit without any good coming to light because people don't care to put in the time and think about solutions. Rather harsh I know, but it does provoke criticism and discussion.

[NOOBY93]

Since when is 1600+ AC low end armor? That's almost top stuff bro.
Also, you didn't count the defense into these formulas... it's not like people run into a fight with 0 defense.

[Vaku]

Since when is 1600+ AC low end armor? That's almost top stuff bro.
Also, you didn't count the defense into these formulas... it's not like people run into a fight with 0 defense.

I write low-end for

the current market.

The total AC was from a complete set, not of the highest quality and more expensive items I could find, but of the more affordable equipment available on the current market. Six months since the start of the world, this is a total value of 100.2 Pearls, 5010 Points. If playing solo, from personal experience, that amount of points in Pearls alone can be made within 1 month, w/o botting.

Anyways, if I used lower quality equipment, the relationship between the attributes would still be revealed. The point I make with using items that can be bought on the market today, serves to give a snapshot of what we can see in today's combat, were there an evenly matched fight (the balanced fight unlikely).

And no, I did not calculate the strikes for various numbers of defense because I want to show the direct relation between attributes, and CON and STR are in direct opposition with each other. Also, if you're going in for a kill, rarely would you waste using chop when someone has 30-100% Defense, especially if evenly matched. You work your best to lower their defense so they take the greatest amount of damage. Additionally, I made the assumption the attacks were made with 100% Offense. I also did not show the maneuvers, but we could assume that if they're both using B12's Shield won't be used, and for the sake of a balanced assessment, neither would Bloodlust be used.

The way this setup would occur naturally in HnH, where still you would have a balanced fight, would be in a 3v3, where two work away at one target's defense bar and when open for the attack, the third with the B12 uses Chop, and if for a more deadly strike, Cleave.

Adjusted For Possibly New B12 Base DMG Found Here: Sword Tests (325 vs 500 Base DMG Must be Confirmed)

Assuming an attacker connects with their B12 (325 Base DMG) when his oppenent has 0 Defense, and both opponents have equal stats and gear, the breakdown looks like this:

Stats at 10 1739 pts to survive - 605 pts of dmg = Defender Immune
Stats at 100 1955 pts to survive - 1075 pts of dmg = Damage to Gear
Stats at 200 2086 pts to survive - 1279 pts of dmg = Damage to Gear
Stats at 300 2186 pts to survive - 1415 pts of dmg = Damage to Gear
Stats at 500 2346 pts to survive - 1608 pts of dmg = Damage to Gear
Stats at 5000 3875 pts to survive - 2860 pts of dmg = Damage to Gear

We see that the balance, when adjusted for potential base DMG, is in favor of the defender, but still that would assume that all the while when the attacker is raising Strength 10-5000+, the defender is also attempting to keep up with raising Constitution from 10-5000+, and towards the end, it's much more difficult to raise Constitution with Apple Pie than it is to raise Strength with Midnight Blue Cheese.

This is all in part why I suggest the Nourishment System and pair it with the grind of "Training." My next little project for this thread will be demonstrate the system with a possible formula(s) that take(s) into consideration what has since been proposed.