Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Granger]

Emotionally it's wrenching on players when you lose everything you were invested in, home and character, and because of this the great bulk of those who make it to the end game are those who have emotionally distanced themselves from loss.

Which sounds a lot like the definition of sociopath.

[Xcom]

Haven sits in a goldilocks state right now. Sure there are some flaws in the system that could be hammered out, but uprooting the whole game from the ground and replanting it upside down wont make the game better. To many changes all at ones and you will end up with having Haven fans looking at Haven 2 like they did to Salem. Forget having any Haven 1 players going over to the new game if its altered to a point of not even being recognized. Graphics alone doesn't make Haven what it is. I fear the upcoming excessive creative freedom coming up in Haven 2 will shatter what makes Haven 1 tick.

In all honesty the base of Haven with all the mechanics in it works perfectly fine. Focusing on rebuilding it just abandons the spirit of the game. I think working on endgame content on top of the EXISTING game mechanics would be better then trying to reinvent the wheal. As it sounds with the upcoming stockpiles and build sign changes, character development changes and other rumors the game is being reinvented from scratch. Sure it has its appeals attracting people with something new and exciting except that Salem was proof what experimenting with something new and drastic can also have negative outcomes.

I have great respect for JnL for having made Haven except that I fear neither have any clue what endgame Haven should even be like so they focus on what they already know, fixing what doesn't need fixing. Sadly Haven 2 will probably follow the same trend as Salem and ruin the aspects of the game by tampering with the basic instruments that have no need to be tampered with. Instead of giving the players the instruments and tools to expand they limit and narrow down the game into there narrow vision. Haven have already picked up a spirit of its own, it would be better to cooperate with what is already here and learn how to add to it instead of hacking off bits and pieces or even up right kill it and reboot it over and over.

[LadyV]

Im not so sure Jorb and Loftar intend a whole new everything as much as they want to clean up code and streamline process' . Yes they have updated graphics some and will probably add new content. But when they finally run in concurrence with the old game the player testing will tell them which way to head and what to add. Let's reserve judgement till we can actually sample it. Who knows maybe it will work better.

[Xcom]

Haven 2 is a reboot and by that it means a complete rewrite comparable to J.J. Abrams Star Trek reboot. This means we need to kill the old one for the sake of the new. We don't need to wait 6 months to learn there next game will be different, we already know this right now and following up with what we saw in Salem it means the next game wont be what most of us are waiting for.

[Kaios]

I'm not really interested in starting another drawn out and annoying argument with Xcom the Brick Wall but I will just say that his assumptions regarding Haven 2 are exactly that, pure conjecture from the point of view of someone who is clearly afraid of change.

I certainly have no problem admitting that I do not enjoy Salem (at this time) but the reasons it failed under the ownership of Jorb and Loftar are so numerous and of varying degree in impact that putting it all on "Terrible game destroying changes" would not only be unfair, it would be completely incorrect.

I hold high hopes from what I have seen so far for Haven 2 but that doesn't mean I'm positive it's going to be great or the changes they make will all be good things but I give them the benefit of the doubt because I already have proof they are capable of creating an enjoyable game. Despite Xcom's beliefs that this game is perfect the way it is, there are those of us still around who aren't so naive as to believe that the infinite grind scenarios for example are something likely to be enjoyed by a majority, let alone everyone.

[Tonkyhonk]

lol
there probably are many reasons why they decided to recode everything, but those of us who have been around for a while know well that you, xcom, are one of the major reasons of their decision; to stop absurd botting in game.
oh, btw, you arent the first to start botting or talk about it, just saying that you and your friends are just one of the very active botters here currently.


@kaios
sometimes your posts make me want to squeeze you tight <3 (sometimes not though)

[Xcom]

@Tonky
I doubt they are recoding the game caues of the bots. More then likely its general housekeeping in the code that needs done. Sadly its not an update and more or less looks to become a rewrite that is the concern.

An idea would be if JnL would at least visit factions around haven. Learn what they do and see how they are coping with different game mechanics. To see why bots are used, what mechanics work and what don't. It truly is a shame to see them rebuild the game from ground up without at least visit and see what goes down in the larger factions today. By that I don't mean how the game is coded, more or less see how the different game styles are being played today. They would probably be welcomed by everyone playing today and most players would probably share there experience. At least now that they are about to reboot everything they could at least try to soak in the current spirit so we don't end up with Haven and HearthCraft.

[Kaios]

An idea would be if JnL would at least visit factions around haven. Learn what they do and see how they are coping with different game mechanics. To see why bots are used, what mechanics work and what don't.

I'm not sure what exactly you'd expect to come of that though? The reasons for the majority of bot use have already been established and further to that I believe there's a general consensus that nobody really enjoys the fact that they are forced to use bots to either a) Keep up with top tier qualities or, b) Ease the pain of constant clicking/mouse use. As far as other styles of play go, I think between working on this game for the past several years and also having dealt with Salem of late they have a pretty good idea of the common styles.

It truly is a shame to see them rebuild the game from ground up without at least visit and see what goes down in the larger factions today.

You're at least on the right track in this regard considering they have yet to make any official statement on what their plan is/next steps are regarding the development of this version of Haven & Hearth and their new one. (Something myself and I'm sure many others would truly appreciate already!)

I know they've answered some questions via the forum and more through IRC but I don't believe they've made any announcement regarding any of this so really there isn't much point in speculation on "what they are going to do."

[borka]

while i'm not sure if i'll like hafen ( the graphic style - 2D and "isometric" is why i fell in love with HnH mainly) i'm very much ok with JnL wanting to progress (isn't gamemaking about developing skills too and experimenting ?!?) ...


Xcom why only visit factions ?!?

[Danno]

Natural disasters would be a cool feature (or excuse for shrinking the world) as long as building is less tedious.

it sounds only cool only when it happens to someone else. lots of my friends and acquaintances have quit after disasters (crash/HD failure nukes and such) in the past. i dont think its about building being tedious, and you may understand it when it happens to you.

I don't think it would be as bad if there was at least some notice so that the players could gather their valuables before their home is destroyed. Perhaps out of courtesy, the players living in the disaster zones could request a wagon and bull to make the move easier. When my friends and I play, we enjoy journeying to new places with a wagon, but we mainly don't do it often since it takes too long to rebuild everything. Of course, disasters shouldn't happen everyday, but it might be okay once or twice a year if the world is too large.

In all honesty the base of Haven with all the mechanics in it works perfectly fine. Focusing on rebuilding it just abandons the spirit of the game. I think working on endgame content on top of the EXISTING game mechanics would be better then trying to reinvent the wheal.

It might be asking too much for them to add interesting end-game content on top of the existing system. I mean, the existing system is based on infinite grinding. What can you add at the end of infinity?
Whatever changes they make, I'm sure they'll do it well and make the game better than ever before. I doubt they'd do anything too drastic like my suggestions, the game will probably still have its charming spirit with a delicate balance between a simple, peaceful, constructive life vs. cruel and unforgiving bloodshed. The original LP system vs. the curiosity system is a fine example of how they took a crappy feature from the game, changed it completely, and still maintained the spirit of the game while making it a lot more fun and interesting.

An idea would be if JnL would at least visit factions around haven. Learn what they do and see how they are coping with different game mechanics. To see why bots are used, what mechanics work and what don't.

They've always kinda been on the ball with these issues, like with preventing vaults. The new screenshots show a much larger screen that's optimized to be zoomed out. It's evident they're improving the things that just aren't working. With any luck, they'll also make it more viable to play without using x-ray or disabling night time so that nobody feels the need to do so. Bots are used because the game is focused on infinite grinding and because grinding happens to be very tedious and repetitive.
Let's face it, every village reads the wiki and tries to make their village as efficient as possible. Almost everyone uses custom clients to improve efficiency and make the game easier. Many villages have one person put a huge claim over the entire village to prevent decay. Pretty much everyone copes with the issues in the same way, there's no real need for them to inspect every village's "unique" methods.