Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[loftar]

A while ago I made an extremely unpopular suggestion, that sort of dealt with this problem... stat decay.

I've considered stat decay on numerous occasions, but what I find to be the basic problem with it is that it just isn't fun. It's like back when object decay applied to claimed objects as well as unclaimed; it's quite a bad joy-killer when all that you find when logging in the next day is just a grind against mere entropy. Also, transient stats simply feel far less meaningful than permanent ones, which I consider to be a bit of a problem to the RPG nature of the game.

[Danno]

Also, there's a fair difference between "one-liners" and two screen-fulls of text.

You can ignore the stuff I wrote directed at other people. What I wrote to you, excluding your quote boxes, is not even one full screen of text, and it is 3 separate replies to 3 of the posts you made, not an essay for every post you make.

[Duderock]

I've considered stat decay on numerous occasions, but what I find to be the basic problem with it is that it just isn't fun. It's like back when object decay applied to claimed objects as well as unclaimed; it's quite a bad joy-killer when all that you find when logging in the next day is just a grind against mere entropy. Also, transient stats simply feel far less meaningful than permanent ones, which I consider to be a bit of a problem to the RPG nature of the game.

Have you tried looking at it from a different angle? Don't look at stats as the goal itself, think of them as the tools to achieve another goal.

For example, lets say I need to raid an opposite settlement. So for a week we build up our fighting stats. Then we attack and we succeed. Now there is a drought because our farming stats were under-compensated so the focus changes to farming. Notice how the goal shift and changes according to the circumstances. It stops being about maintenance and more about thinking about what the player truly needs.

For stat decay to work it would require a real change in mentality. The problem is people would still see the stats as the goal itself, not the means to achieve another goal, thats why its so unpopular.

[loftar]

Have you tried looking at it from a different angle? Don't look at stats as the goal itself, think of them as the tools to achieve another goal.

To be honest, I think it is you who mischaracterize the problem (or, perhaps, see a problem where there is none). You speak of "mindlessly raising numbers [as opposed to] raising stats to achieve a specific goal" or that "people see the stats as the goal itself", but I don't think it is actually the case that people do this. I don't. How about you?

For example, lets say I need to raid an opposite settlement. So for a week we build up our fighting stats.

How about the time before that week? Was everything that was done before that time pointless, since this week was all that was needed to raise fighting stats to raid that opposite settlement?

[Duderock]

To be honest, I think it is you who mischaracterize the problem (or, perhaps, see a problem where there is none). You speak of "mindlessly raising numbers [as opposed to] raising stats to achieve a specific goal" or that "people see the stats as the goal itself", but I don't think it is actually the case that people do this. I don't. How about you?

Sorry I was using hyperbole. Of course we aren't 'mindlessly' raising our stats, but there comes a point were we truly are raising stats for the sake of raising stats. Certainly in my experience at least. Hence the talk of this quality grind.

How about the time before that week? Was everything that was done before that time pointless, since this week was all that was needed to raise fighting stats to raid that opposite settlement?

Last week was spent building high quality weapons using their superior blacksmith stats.

[Ninijutsu]

To be honest, I think it is you who mischaracterize the problem (or, perhaps, see a problem where there is none). You speak of "mindlessly raising numbers [as opposed to] raising stats to achieve a specific goal" or that "people see the stats as the goal itself", but I don't think it is actually the case that people do this. I don't. How about you?

Sorry I was using hyperbole. Of course we aren't 'mindlessly' raising our stats, but there comes a point were we truly are raising stats for the sake of raising stats. Certainly in my experience at least. Hence the talk of this quality grind.

I don't raise my stats because I like big numbers, I raise my stats as a means to achieving an easier PvP experience.

[loftar]

Also, there's a fair difference between "one-liners" and two screen-fulls of text.

You can ignore the stuff I wrote directed at other people.

Sigh. I read it through, and I already regret it. This is precisely what I mean by "not having seen heaping amounts" of good ideas. :P

I'm sure you won't be satisfied with that response, but to be honest I don't really know what to respond. I've read your replies like five times over by now, and I can tell that they're either horrible, vague or just hopelessly abstract (or just entirely obvious), but I'm having a very hard time putting my finger on just how. I can't really motivate spending more time trying to exalt just why they are bad, though, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave you thinking I'm an idiot.

[Duderock]

I don't raise my stats because I like big numbers, I raise my stats as a means to achieving an easier PvP experience.

Me too. But there comes a point when every player in the village is a jack of all trades. In other words, there comes a point where I'm not raising my farming stats to feed my team, I'm raising them because I got nothing else left to raise meaningfully. PvP is the only exception.

Stat decay can keep the goals cycling which I believe is a good way to keep a sustainable sandbox.

[loftar]

Last week was spent building high quality weapons using their superior blacksmith stats.

This is not actually what you're saying, but thinking about weapons strikes a chord with something I was thinking about last week.

In the context of "grinding weapons", it is interesting to note that, even if I can keep grinding q93 swords given a certain character and asset configuration, that won't help me make a better weapon than that no matter how many q93 swords I make. To produce that better weapon instead, I may have to do something more qualitative than to just keep grinding swords, like venturing out to find better clay or ore to make a q107 sword, or perhaps try to make a B12 axe instead, or something else.

What I was thinking about was in the context of food. I was considering if it isn't a bit retarded that I can, theoretically speaking, just eat ~250,000 blueberries in order to produce a character with 500 INT, and whether it wouldn't be more fun if I had to keep advancing towards qualitatively different food (and/or more variety, or something) to keep advancing, somehow (and we already have some plans baking for Haven 2 that aren't entirely dissimilar from that).

This is just a rant, really, because I'm still not sure just what conclusions I should be drawing from that, but perhaps someone found it interesting.

[TeckXKnight]

A while ago I made an extremely unpopular suggestion, that sort of dealt with this problem... stat decay.

I've considered stat decay on numerous occasions, but what I find to be the basic problem with it is that it just isn't fun. It's like back when object decay applied to claimed objects as well as unclaimed; it's quite a bad joy-killer when all that you find when logging in the next day is just a grind against mere entropy. Also, transient stats simply feel far less meaningful than permanent ones, which I consider to be a bit of a problem to the RPG nature of the game.

Loftar is entirely correct when he says that stat decay, much like all forms of penalizing upkeep, blow. They turn playing the game to any degree into a chore, punish you for not playing 24/7, and consume valuable resources to no real benefit. This drains your fucking soul when playing a game or doing anything else in life really. The only way to do upkeep without stomping on fun is with an inconsequential upkeep, one that there is either no punishment or an incredibly minor one for not adhering to its demands and that is relatively easy to keep up with without much effort. But then, why? You need a good reason to put something like this in a game, such as the hunger bar, which acts more as a reward than anything else. The problem being that the hunger bar encourages behavior that is bad for the game. Behavior that has been discussed to death but, for those that haven't seen any of that, it encourages doing nonsense activities to get hungry faster: running back and forth, digging endlessly, swimming up and down a river, etc.. Though in my opinion it's the ability to drink water to make yourself hungrier that creates most of that problem.

What I was thinking about was in the context of food. I was considering if it isn't a bit retarded that I can, theoretically speaking, just eat ~250,000 blueberries in order to produce a character with 500 INT, and whether it wouldn't be more fun if I had to keep advancing towards qualitatively different food (and/or more variety, or something) to keep advancing, somehow (and we already have some plans baking for Haven 2 that aren't entirely dissimilar from that).

Considering that a huge problem people seem to have with the current system is that it permits a form of limitless unmitigated growth. If you implemented systems of mitigation to stat and skill growth, even if there was no absolute limit, that'd probably go a long way to making things better.