Haven 2.0: "Hafen"

[Dzedajus]

tbh I don't care anymore what kind of train-wreck devs will make.

[Tonkyhonk]

guys, stop going too extreme, "listen to all i say or youre not listening cause i know better and you should feel bad" kind of argument sounds even shittier.

[Kaios]

guys, stop going too extreme, "listen to all i say or youre not listening cause i know better" kind of argument sounds even shittier.

I realize I'm being fairly harsh towards them and it is somewhat intentional, I don't think anyone else is acting out as much as me though.

Danno for example has managed to maintain a calm and collected demeanor despite the fact his own large amount of effort he has put towards this discussion has basically been wasted so far as made evident by Loftar and Jorb.

[Massa]

tbh I don't care anymore what kind of train-wreck devs will make.

Why do you keep posting then?
Shut up and get off the forums if you don't care any more, all you do is spew your venomous dribble all over these forums where it's neither welcome nor needed.

[Tonkyhonk]

Danno for example has managed to maintain a calm and collected demeanor despite the fact his own large amount of effort he has put towards this discussion has basically been wasted so far as made evident by Loftar and Jorb.

to be completely honest, i actually agree with loftar regarding Dannos posts, though i do get his sentiment. also, im not in ip but as i hear it, potjeh and loftar have had the same conversation repeatedly and repeating once again and there seems to be nothing new in there for devs im afraid. (and im pretty sure potjeh was originally answering or replying to other posters anyways.)

[Ninijutsu]

With the exception of Danno, when have I ever "shitten all over" an idea? I can't say that anything comes to mind.

I've seen lots of good ones and you said you haven't.

Like what?

Oh jk i havent seen any good ones either.

[Kaios]

useless

I'm at work, I find time to make posts in between what I am doing but to go through a huge selection of threads and posts and pick out the individual gems would take too much time right now. I will do so later on if you insist, but if you're also implying that there has not been a single good suggestion in regards to what can be done to make mid-game and late-game more interesting and less of a grind it is just simply not true.

Just because I can't recall every single thread or post made that I agree'd with doesn't mean they aren't there if you look for them.

[Ninijutsu]

I haven't been reading, so I have no idea, but I found it really disrespectful to not even answer loftar's completely logical and sincere question after shooting him down for not already knowing the answer. I do insist you actually present him with one of the gems you speak of.

[Potjeh]

Certainly; I wasn't trying to paint out a dichotomy between "high single character investment XOR massive alting", where moving towards one intrinsically moves away from the other. It's a far more complex problem than that, and different aspects of the game prefer one or the other in different ways.

However, capping Delta the way I exemplified would certainly make the alting problem far worse, and I would think that it effectively just replaces the character grind with just as much alt grind. In that way, I don't see that it wouldn't even improve the situation you complain about. (Unless you prefer alt grinding to character grinding, but I doubt this is the case.)

I don't quite follow your logic here. To me it seems clear cut that number of required alts = time required to grind up an alt / average lifespan of one. Increasing character investment, ie the time required to grind up, can thus only make the alt problem worse.

And time investment beating actual player skill with no contest at all is definitely a problem. IMO player skill determining the outcome is a crucial element of anything that wants to be considered a game, and if we can't agree on that axiom there's simply not enough common ground for any productive discussion.

I'm not sure I agree on the finer details of the characterization of the problem, but I do agree that there is a problem in that general direction, and it is something I already intend to have in mind when designing the new combat system for Haven 2.

I think the framing here is as simplistic as it can be, and can't be deconstructed further. To reiterate, player skill is a central element of any game. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? If neither, please provide your opinion on what role player skill has in a game. And no, I don't consider purely luck-based contests such as lottery to be games.

However, I think it should be said that I don't necessarily and intrinsically mind that people who have more time on their hands and/or more drive to play them game use that to enhance their situation in the game. I mean, what would even be the alternative? Sure, the numbers can be balanced in various ways, but I don't really see that there's a way to completely and qualitatively avoid that factor in a fundamental way. Say, for instance, that you have two players of about equal actual player skill -- would you then suggest that the game keep them equal even if one plays ten times as much as the other?

What have you been reading? Because that is completely unrelated to what I've been writing.

[jorb]

To reiterate, player skill is a central element of any game.

Of any good game, at least, yes, and every combat system we have ever designed have been designed precisely with this ambition in mind that skill should matter at least as much as preparation and luck.