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jorb
- Posts: 18715
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- Location: Here, there and everywhere.
Re: Finally!
Because the alternative is meaningless. There is no alternative.
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
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g1real
- Posts: 881
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- Location: You are now breathing manually.
Re: Finally!
But doesn't that make him not all-powerful, since his very power is limited by his nature? If he was all-powerful, wouldn't he be able to surpass his nature, for better or worse? Or perhaps there would be no need to surpass his nature, since he is all-powerful? If a nature is unsurpassable, is it still considered a nature though? What defines a unsurpassable nature?
(This is so hilariously offtopic though.)
(This is so hilariously offtopic though.)
loftar: The inner chaos of the Jorbian mind is hard to conceal. 
jorb: It's called creative license. You know, that thing you seem to want to apply to logic, grammar and coherence?
jorb: It's called creative license. You know, that thing you seem to want to apply to logic, grammar and coherence?
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Vigilance
- Posts: 3561
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- Location: fog of irrelevancy
Re: Finally!

"Tosak gets the guys undressed faster than their girlfriends can." -NaoWhut
http://i.imgur.com/5cQiL.png http://i.imgur.com/lYyAA.png
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jorb
- Posts: 18715
- Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:07 am
- Location: Here, there and everywhere.
Re: Finally!
If he could do that, would it then not evidently be in his nature to be able to do precisely that? Do you not see the paradox?g1real wrote:If he was all-powerful, wouldn't he be able to surpass his nature, for better or worse?
If you can transcend your own nature, then that ability is a part of your nature, and thus you cannot.
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
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g1real
- Posts: 881
- Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:30 am
- Location: You are now breathing manually.
Re: Finally!
It can't be in your nature to transcend your nature, would that be a thing, then nature would me a meaningless concept. Or are arguing about the semantics on the concept of nature here?jorb wrote:If he could do that, would it then not evidently be in his nature to be able to do precisely that? Do you not see the paradox?
If you can transcend your own nature, then that ability is a part of your nature, and thus you cannot.
If nature doesn't exist, then it's all a debate on whether something is all-powerful or not, so it comes back to the original argument you tried to fight. Or am I misunderstanding?
loftar: The inner chaos of the Jorbian mind is hard to conceal. 
jorb: It's called creative license. You know, that thing you seem to want to apply to logic, grammar and coherence?
jorb: It's called creative license. You know, that thing you seem to want to apply to logic, grammar and coherence?
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jorb
- Posts: 18715
- Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:07 am
- Location: Here, there and everywhere.
Re: Finally!
Precisely my point. So why are you asking of God that he be able to?g1real wrote:It can't be in your nature to transcend your nature, would that be a thing, then nature would me a meaningless concept.
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
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g1real
- Posts: 881
- Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:30 am
- Location: You are now breathing manually.
Re: Finally!
I'm not asking anything. I'm saying that if he can't, then he's not all powerful. Could he, then he would be able to make nature meaningless. So, he either is not all-powerful, or has no nature.
I wrote a bunch more text, but I was getting this strange urge of tipping hats of specific makings. It scared me a bit, so I'm gonna stop.
I wrote a bunch more text, but I was getting this strange urge of tipping hats of specific makings. It scared me a bit, so I'm gonna stop.
Last edited by g1real on Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
loftar: The inner chaos of the Jorbian mind is hard to conceal. 
jorb: It's called creative license. You know, that thing you seem to want to apply to logic, grammar and coherence?
jorb: It's called creative license. You know, that thing you seem to want to apply to logic, grammar and coherence?
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Procne
- Posts: 984
- Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 3:04 pm
Re: Finally!
If you assume the God exists and that he created the whole universe then everything is in his nature and nothing is outside of it, as he is the creator, and definer, of everything. You, as his creation, are unable to imagine anything outside his nature, as all your knowledge, experience, perception and thoughts are within his nature. And your nature is only a small subset of his nature.g1real wrote:I'm not asking anything. I'm saying that if he can't, then he's not all powerful. Could he, then he would be able to make nature meaningless. So, he either is not all-powerful, or has no nature.
"God, can you create a rock which you would be unable to lift?"
"Have a thunder smartass"
"BZZZZT"
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jorb
- Posts: 18715
- Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:07 am
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Re: Finally!
And I am saying that if your conception of "all powerful" also includes "completely devoid of all power" then the concept is, indeed, meaningless. God's allpower can perhaps be better understood as "power of the maximum possible extent", which is not self-contradictory.g1real wrote:I'm saying that if he can't, then he's not all powerful. Could he, then he would be able to make nature meaningless.
Again, your argument rests on demanding a logical fallacy of God.
*tips stetson*
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose