How to make melee interesting and reduce archery QQ

[banok]

So alot of people complain about archery for stupid and wrong reasons, like horseback archery. I'm an archer and my job is alot easier if we are both on foot than both mounted. And that running side to side video...

But I do agree combat could do with some rebalances, so I'm suggesting a few changes which together balance combat in a rock paper scissors fashion.

First Shields should have armour values like armour, EXCEPT they only count vs arrow damage when shield up skill is active. This is conditional nerf to bow damage, but which makes sense. Shields should have low reflect but high absorb so they reduce arrow damage alot but break in 2-3 hits with good bow - leaving the target very vulnerable as they cannot use shield up ability.

But shields are already overpowered, there is no reason not to use a shield as a non archer. So along with this change we need new 2 handed weapon only skills which give them a significant advantage over 1h and shield users in mele. such as double MC wieght and such. anything that gives them a clear edge in extended combat, because right now 2 guys with shield up spamming sting is the definition of boring. Also add those godam sexy 2h swords from valhalla already.

So overall you have a combat triangle where archers have edge over 2h, 2h have edge over shielders, shields have edge over archers. Ideally neither is a complete win over the other, but it encourages groups to field multiple roles, and makes combat less boring.

I'd also suggest making alot of the most powerful melee moves not useable from horseback, as horses should be for chasing and harassing and balanced by giving a disadvantage in a toe to toe fight. So I would suggest shield up and any new 2h skills not be usable on horseback. Encouraging people to dismount in serious pvp, making being a rider in a fight more risky.

Lastly you could also reduce bone arrow damage somewhat and add metal arrows into the mix, so archers are more dependant on metal.

[mietzi94]

I like. Add more skills. Make Ua more useful. More Defenses + Claws etc

[Kalacia]

Maybe the archers skills would be based on the arrow type used?

[CloudJhi]

Please toss in actual Unarmed weapons into the 2h Line of weaponry, because I feel that buffing UA would be a great way to go about forming a proper triangle.

[banok]

Yeah I do see the fact than both a 2hander and a 1h+shield use the same LP investment as a problem. Whereas MC and archery are two seperate skills.

I'm not entirely sure best way to resolve it, you could make the 2h moves scale off of unarmed skill. which doesn't make a ton of sense but would probably work, but then also causes issues with possible bow+2h hander being too low investment. So I think really we need a whole new separate 2h skill for 2h moves to scale off.

That way archers need UA + archery. shielders need MC + UA. And 2 handers need UA + 2H. And neither can switch role easily, and hybrids would have to invest into at least 3 skills instead of 2.

[banok]

I also noticed you gave ants armour penetration, might be cool if you added some new weapons with AP like maces and such. Also could add AP to metal arrows so they chip small HP damage through shield up.

[MrBunzy]

Please toss in actual Unarmed weapons into the 2h Line of weaponry, because I feel that buffing UA would be a great way to go about forming a proper triangle.

The full unarmed builds are pretty viable at the moment, if a little bit weaker than the MC counterpart. Decks running low blow/steal thunder and cleave can break through defenses with their ua moves and then cleave once the defender has no manuvers, making the relative delta meaningless. Even if a sliver of a maneuver is left over after unarmed attacks, the sword quality factoring into mc attack weight and the free stats from thanes ensure that you still get damage off. I've had quite a bit of success playing aggressively with a deck like this. The main weakness compared to mc decks is that ua maneuvers are all significantly worse than shield and parry. Weights aren't inflated by thanes and other gear, the base weights and cooldowns are worse, and you're forced to choose between defending against chop or cleave, whereas shield and parry cover both simultaneously.


I agree that marksmanship could use some sort of counter play, because as it currently stands the mechanics don't really encourage fun combat (signpost spam everywhere). Giving shield the ability to block arrows would just further buff mc builds, and take you further away from the desired combat triangle, but some interaction between archery and maneuvers might help. I think some sort of warning that a person is trying to shoot at you would go a long way, because currently the only way to anticipate an archer is to zoom in and look for characters aiming their bows (or guess who might be aiming if they are using one of the many ways to cancel animations). In a group fight there is a lot going on and arrows very easily catch people by surprise, and there's really nothing you can do about it, which is quite frustrating..


Anyway, I haven't played around with bows enough to decisively say what needs to be done, but the best course of action is probably to just play the game and see how things turn out. If they end up dominating the meta they may just need to be nurf'd, but they also have potential to add an extra dimension to combat.

[Flameturtle]

As much as the rock, paper, scissors dynamic is a tired and overdone concept, it's like that because it works and this would provide the variety and hopefully balance that people are looking for from the combat system.

[Kalacia]

Even if you had a rock paper scissors system... you could easily add in a support class. I dont mean healers.

We already have instruments, we could play them to provide buffs or debuffs... making combat even more complex.