What would an ideal endgame look like for you?

[ChildhoodObesity]

i want a dungeon with a dragon or something u kno and i wanna do a boss battle that has a rare chance of dropping a nice item u kno?? maybe u neeed 100 ppl to win this fight heh... maybe it drops battleaxe of the 34th bay?? perhaps a 100ua gilding hehe

[viznew]

anything that involes most players would be awsome imo

i like to see it kinda sprial outta control at the end like we players must keep something at bay (kill some sorta beasts so thay dont accumulate to over welling numbers, or keep some sorta alters upkept so thay don't erupt into destruction of some sort (everything seems to lead to big monsters of some sort in my head))

[Sevenless]

Variety:

I think one important thing that haven is missing in endgame is spice. There are no nice surprises in endgame haven, just the daily humdrum. Now that mineral nodes are smaller and more frequent you don't even have the pleasure of large mineral finds. I like the effect this has on game balance for current systems, but I'm not sure it's the right way to go for keeping long term interest as a rule. Being brutally honest, we're talking about skinner box reinforcement with a healthy inspiration from gambling addiction studies. Endgame WoW involves this concept. Grinding out those super rare items. Many successful cellphone games involve this concept, Fallout Shelter as an example. Lots of RNG to find good stuff involved. Many games take advantage of this by selling RNG based reward crates. Old haven (pre-fate) had a taste of this concept, foraging. Lots of low grade reward that made the activity worth doing, and then an occasional juicy reward. Fate, while indeed clearing up the botting issue, took away the low stakes slot machine that quite a few players enjoyed.

More than one way to skin this cat. I suggested a new overlay to the crafting system along these lines here. I've seen suggestions about mobile localized resources, and mobile nodes which may add to the same effect (if the base activity is too grindy/boring, the fun of nice finds gets significantly diminished though, so I'm not 100% certain this could work in the current haven foraging mechanics). Lady goo's idea here has potential to be a mechanic like this depending on the loot reward structure. The key behind it all is that the base activity for this slot machine has to be tolerable (enjoyable for some is better, but not something you can always guarentee) and the lucky rewards have to have large variety and at least notable importance. Given haven's botting issues, botability probably needs to be addressed. In my invention idea I suggested limiting the attempts per account, restricting it to paid accounts so people can't fire up 20 of them. Restricting it is likely necessary (restriction of reward based activities is core to skinner box models), but it could be something as frequent as "once per hour" given haven's playtime models.


Renew-ability:

Crafting slows down too much once you get crazy quality. Quality works as an indirect item sink, as you get better items you naturally want to upgrade. But at some point the upgrades stop being important, so you stop upgrading many things (non-combat gilds, most tools, hunting weapons). This turns endgame into a waiting game over things like wood/clay qualities as you wait for trees and localized resource spawns. Mining is sort of active, always hunting for that next slightly better ore node. But yet again it's mostly waiting on better coal/smelters from trees/clay respectively. As much as I'm loathe to say it, items need to wear out. Armor needs to take meaningful wear, tools and weapons definitely need to wear out. Gilds should probably wear out as well. I'm not necessarily talking "fast", but it needs to happen in a meaningful way. This will help keep item crafting relevant as a day to day activity in the long run.

This is part, only part, of a newer system that would move towards non-permadeath pvp (I'm assuming we'll actually complete the ko>hearth system at some point instead of this half step we have due to current B12 grievous damage and leech mechanics). Looting equipment is meaningless if everyone has no issue maintaining it. I've suggested in the past that equipment looted from enemies become part of a new resource system instead (with ritual sacrifice of your own characters included to address people creating the resource by dressing up alts). This is mostly to give endgame players an actual benefit from killing less advanced players when everything they'd have on them would be useless to said endgame player.


Enhanced Collaboration:

Realms are working great, but you never really need to get involved in it. You have no vested interest in your realm surviving (presumably any realm taking you over will have stronger bonuses due to superior military might), and the realm doesn't particularly care what you do so long as you keep playing and gathering XP. That's a great system for what it does, it makes random villages valuable to a realm as a resource instead of as grief-able targets. But at the same time, it'd be nice if there were realm wide projects villages could get involved in. It would also be neat if there was some form of village localized buff or specialization (realms do unfortunately suffer from being generic, the big boys can afford a lot and the small realms struggle to maintain the vital buffs) you could work towards as a mini group within the kingdom. Some way you could help your realm or your village more intentionally. Monuments and religion have been suggested in the past for various purposes, and I'm inclined to agree.


Enhanced motivation for conflict:

Especially if we're moving to non-permadeath pvp (or at least non-permadeath providing you satisfy X conditions), we can start expanding on mechanical reasons to encourage fights. Resources that must be contested over, not ones that might be contested over (like localized resources, which mainly just gets alted because you can grab it and run). Another issue with localized resources is that the current realm system encourages you to be friendly with your immediate neighbours (kingdom wants every XP battery alive preferably, and I'm assuming most kingdoms attempt to deal with troublemakers to a degree). As such, the only resources you access are ones likely to be sat on by friendlies. Some kind of reward reinforced pvp, that randomly links you with different groups from around the haven, would be my suggestion. However, for most people to have a chance to compete over this the effects of stats/equipment as they stand currently would need to be modified.

The combat system being "fun" is of course required for this suggestion to make sense. "Fun" however has been very hard to truly track down, and we've seen many iterations of the combat system over the years hunting this elusive goal. Fun appears to mean skill based to many pvpers. Unfortunately I find the current system quite enjoyable and moderately intuitive (vastly more intuitive than past iterations), but I realize it's not coming down to skill in fights between players who know how to work the system. Good luck with that :/


Stats:

Right now our stat system is unfortunately dysfunctional in my opinion. This flaw is emphasized by the current power eating issues that exist as pointed out in this thread here, but I feel it would be true either way if just less obviously so. Several have suggested stat caps to address this, but I feel it breaks too far from the haven model of infinite grind (which we know works, our experiment with stat caps apparently failed). Our formulas though well intentioned don't do enough to curb the impact of big village vs small village. I don't think a single scale works, I feel like we need to modify the stat formula so that the benefit scale differently depending on where they are in the spectrum. Mind you this is balanced for current food system, numbers may need to be rescaled. In the current system I'm specifically talking about combat abilities/attributes, but here's how I feel it should work:

1-100 should have the most impact. 101-300 should have a large impact still but starting to calm down. But 300+ should have very minor impacts. This means Q10 alts still won't be that useful in a dust up, but a 300 stat/skill character willl not be massively disadvantaged against a 1000 stat character. I think that by reducing the vastness between the potential effective power of opponents, it'll be easier to make combat more skill based.

As I mentioned here, I think more stats need an unending use. This general concept of 1-100 noob, 100-300 mid game, 300+ advanced would need to be applied evenly though.

Bonus point: Wife's reaction "Jesus christ, does everything you write turn into an essay. *pauses to look at my reply* It has CHAPTERS."

[Kaios]

Something I thought was worth looking back over since the start of this world was the "in the pipe" portion of the development patches to get some idea of where the devs themselves wanted to take things so I kind of summed that up like this:

Dec. 28, 2016

Future Developments
--------------------
This reset is motivated only in part by development needs. We have some changes that we want to make to the map generation, but the bigger thing is, partly, that we have accumulated a fair amount of significant changes -- kingdoms, combat, quests, &c -- that we would like to see playing out in a new world, and partly that we want a fresh start for the game, quite simply. We have not yet decided where to take future development, but seasons and object-controlled objects have both figured in our discussions. We have a general sense that a lot of the low-hanging development fruit has been picked, and that we would have to undertake some bigger project to significantly improve the game. Another thing we are considering is making the game available on Steam.

Jan. 7, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• A lot of you have decided to use the store since we announced the world reset, and we are very grateful for this. I'd like to take the opportunity to again apologize if the original monetization scheme we rolled out with W8 was clumsily implemented. Big thank yous to all of you for keeping H&H great!
• We'll be keeping an eye on the server tomorrow, but aim to deliver at least some bug fixes sometime during next week.
• Finishing the push-out mechanic is an immediate priority.
• I may update this post with answers to question that may come up, and edits for clarity, or whatever.

Jan.12, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• We've had great response to the world reset. A lot of people have been playing, feedback has been pretty positive from what we can tell, and we've made a decent amount of money in the store. Big thank yous to all of you for playing, paying, and generally keeping Haven great. We'll try to keep earning it.
• The game is in a good place, and we feel we can pick and choose what to work on. The immediate priority remains the push-out mechanic, and a non-exhaustive list of medium scope things I'd like to get done are: Look at fishing, qualitative Kingdom buffs, wolves, iterate on combat, deepen quests and quest giving, and rework death mechanics.
• Large scope things on our list are: Object-controlled objects, and Seasons.
• I have an ambition to intensify the propaganda. We'll do another live stream soon(tm).

Jan. 19, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• We had a pretty nasty crash earlier today with some local rollbacks and two lost villages. It seems sorted now, but it ate a fair bit of dev time.
• Nothing much to add.

Jan. 26, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• Smallish patch, but steaming on!

Feb. 1, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• Push-out is still a work in progress. Other than that we're steaming on.
• Loftar and I livestreamed as we put this patch up. You can watch it at https://www.twitch.tv/bruderbohne or at http://www.youtube.com/bruderbohne as soon as the uploads are finished.

Feb. 16, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• Not entirely sure on the Kingdom changes, but perhaps an improvement. We realize that over-securing border cairns may become a thing instead. Keep the input coming.
• Small patch this week, again 'cause reasons, but loftar tells me that he's been making progress on push-out, so that's something. Aiming for something meatier next week!

Feb. 23, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• Push-out is still loftar's main priority.
• I had hoped to do more little things this week, but the Realm bonuses were a bit of a big deal. With that somewhat out of the way, however, I hope we can do a good old fashioned cleanup patch next week with some content implementations, bugfixes, and polish to existing mechanics. Hunting and death mechanics are at the top of my wishlist.

Mar. 2, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• I realize that there are a couple of key fixes to common exploits and nonsense lacking from this update. Will try to focus on bug-fixing, hunting, and polish again for next week.

Mar. 8, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• There may not be a patch next week, but we will, regardless, look to make more bugfixes and polish for at least one more patch.

Apr. 5, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• Small patch, but at least we're back to work. Sorry for the hiatus.

Apr. 12, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• We have been a bit unsure on where to take development. Feel free to opine on what you'd like to see change/improve.
• Push-out is still a thing, and we have begun considering various client optimizations as well.

Apr. 20, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• We have some interesting ideas for the next patch. I'm already looking forward to it.
• Let us know how the knockout and wound changes play out, I'm open to any and all changes.
• Push-out. Working on it.
• Like us on Facebook!

Apr. 26, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• Have you liked us on Facebook yet?
• Push-out.

May 10, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• With push-out fixed -- which, if it indeed is, feels awesome -- our most likely next big target is some larger rendering rewrites for promising client optimizations!

May 24, 2017

In the Pipe
-----------------------

• With push-out finished in its entirety, we'll now be heading full steam for the client performance revamp. Expect bi-weekly-ish patches for the forseeable future.
• What? You haven't liked us on Facebook? For shame.

One thing you will surely notice is the severe lack of direction in later patches. Patches that were done earlier in the world have much more detailed "in the pipe" sections that actually give us some idea of where things are going or where the devs would like them to go. Kingdoms, combat, quests, object-controlled objects, seasons and push-out mechanic were all at the top of their mind when this world began but now other than push-out I am not exactly sure where those things stand in terms of development priority.

It seems like push-out kind of ate up a bunch of the development time because in later patches it's all you really mention and honestly most of what has been added during that time amounts to a bunch of fluff when you're taking the end-game in to consideration. More "stuff" is always good don't get me wrong but there really has not been much added to actually garner a player's interest for the long term.

Other than focusing on client optimization, I think it might be best if you just went back to your original thoughts and focus on kingdoms, combat and quests. Kingdoms still have a long way to go if you want to get more than just the core members of a kingdom involved in its development and many players miss out on the opportunity to form their own realms when the world has mostly been covered by the time they have the materials to do so. I'm sure you know quests could use much improvement as well and I've already stated what I think about combat in other threads. Siege is another one that needs to be worked on and there were even some plans for changes on that I would like to see.

It's hard for me to say what my ideal end game would look like because for the most part I still enjoy my time playing this game even though I still get bored a lot but certainly improving some of the larger mechanics we have now that are constant throughout early game until the end of the world would go a long way towards improving things.

[ctopolon3]

wat about miniWipe EVENTS like:
all metal + anvil \ str+agi+con \ clay kiln bones (lose 30% per week)
until
kill the dragon \ heal for plague \ pray to gods (community action)
with
lance made with (evently spawn) ore on lvl2 \ make potion with berry (evently spawn) \ make hat from red sheep (evently spawn) & dance at ringofbrodgar / kill your own bad spirit (mob\nidbane) in valhalla (mb find new friend there because it will be place for meeting\recruiting)

[DeadlyPencil]

I would like to see:

A center map grid island that is unbuildable/unclaimable and has crazy dangerous stuff going on. Tornados, very powerful animals (super versions of normal ones), acient ruins, ghosts/nilbanes floating around, rare resource nodes. i would like to see it dangerous enough that people have to take wagons and mules with them carrying supplies when they go hunting. make it so people cant log out/teleport while being in that zone, so ur stuck there until u can get out with ur kills.

something along those lines

[svino]

Some things in haven truly have endgame. Like the anvil grinding. I think it is a perfect industry.

In the start, it requires leather and wax from hunting, foraging, and farming.
It needs food from hunting and farming.
It requires a lot of clay, which needs to be found by exploring.
It has random elements which can make it more exciting and frustrating.
Later it requires a lot of fine clay, high quality bones from hunting, and high quality minerals from mining.
It also requires high quality wood from trees, and finally it requires a lot lot lot of mining.

It incorporates elements from nearly all other industries, and it almost has no end.

I would say that anvil grinding is an amazing example of endgame grinding.


------------------------------


On a sidenote, I actually don't think the event ideas with dungeons or something are bad. Maybe we could incorporate it into the quest system so that every 10 quests you complete, you get some sort of fragment you can combine with other fragments to help the mystic trees/rocks get rid of an evil spirit.

[Aceb]

People intergrate.

Have a big arena with a tons of social stuff built around it. We have enough tools (but it would be nice if we get more by expanding a many of suggestions), to do the stuff, we have enough players to do the stuff.

All we need is a decent location.
All we need is a decent people.
All we need is to have the place build, setup and gentleman agreement (I'm looking at all ADs, DIS, DIS-alike, DIS-wannabies), to not be aggresive at that place (unless it is arena activity).

Partially, community fair already with their events is something I sought for so long in this community or er... world.

This is a type of game where we can't have a proper "endgame".
This is a type of game where we can make ourselfs "endgame"...
...With a little help from devs to implement some more stuff.

But well, I guess it would be hard for our "floweys" to get into that kind of aggreement.
It is only human to commit a sin… Hah hah hah...

[The_Lich_King]

Endgame world events, like maybe have an event where a dragon comes and starts to destroy property in all the villages and it will continue to destroy realms and take names till enough people band together to defeat it, or maybe an end event where jorb and loftar make some kind of god faction that will try to conquer the entire world if they aren't stopped. Something that's gripping and could bring players together in an epic war for the ages, and maybe you could get legendary gilds and such for participating in this event, or maybe an event where jorb and loftar make themselves in the world and the first person to find and kill them gets an epic sword called excalibur.

[damnredrain]

I've always compared HnH to the Path of Exile. Sure, both games are from different genre, but they both share the idea of endless endgame grinding, where at some point people start sharing how they oneshoot most powerful bosses. In case of path of exile, devs are keeping players in game by sustaining "eternal" (it is actually called Standard) world, where all your achievements stay true forever, and temporary leagues that last from 3 to 5 months and bring new sorts of content into the game. At the end of temporary league everything you own is transferred to the eternal league. In the end, everyone is happy. Casuals that don't wanna loose everything can keep on playing on standard, and more hardcore racers can compete in exploring new content. It is hardly applyable to hnh, since there's not enough manpower to maintain new updates, and this requires twice as powerful hardware.

So I thought that personal islands would solve this issue to some extent?
World ends and you may choose to go and rebuild everything from scratch, or to stay on your island and peacefully grind your carrots. So interactions between islands and real world could be limited, for example old world items could not be brought to the new one, as well as the characters. But that's just an idea. I realize that this could break the game completely or it would not fit into the theme of the game.