Combat system: turn based?

[julian12it]

Combat turned system just doesn't sound right for Haven. "Hey come play Haven and Hearth, a open world PVP game that's turned based!" In my opinion, turned based just makes the game more stats dependent if anything. "First one to hit and has more stats wins" - Everyone if it turns, turned based. Being able to move and maybe even get your group to flank your enemies is one of the best feelings of this game.

[CTheRain]

It would be awkward. From my experiences playing advanced wars and paper mario. Tales of Toast had turn based combat for a bit. Really restrictive.

I always suggest dungeon crawler (POE, Diablo) or MOBA (LoL, Dota) type combat with directional attacks or skills. Just makes sense when I think of what it would look like. Maybe not in practice however. But B12 someone with cleave and they roll and shield bash me for stun and I get struck down seems cool. (Maybe not for perma-death) I got ADHD.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Albion Online tried to implement MOBA style combat, but it's generally seen as having failed to do so in a good way.

ARPG combat is basically just broken for PVP.

[neeco]

Combat turned system just doesn't sound right for Haven. "Hey come play Haven and Hearth, a open world PVP game that's turned based!" In my opinion, turned based just makes the game more stats dependent if anything. "First one to hit and has more stats wins" - Everyone if it turns, turned based. Being able to move and maybe even get your group to flank your enemies is one of the best feelings of this game.

Agree with this one. I actually enjoy haven combat quite a bit as it is. It was a little more fun before push-out when good pathing actually meant something. Not that I don't like push-out. Makes life way easier.
Would be nice if it was more skill based and less about who can make the most cheese for the most people.

[sMartins]

The main thing about turn based is that would make the game very fun, cause we can add pretty much everything that comes in your mind in a relative easy way.
Super mobs to fight, stealth, ambush mechanics, tactics, tracking, dungeons etc.. etc..

If we face the reality it would be the best solution for haven to me.
Directional attacks, Salem like, doesn't work cause just 1 server and potential exploits, all the others options doesn't work as well .... I mean, if we would ever have a "solid" combat system, turn based it's the only one I can think of right now.
Also it can be improved during time, while the others combat mechanics are all limited by technical difficulties, that for a game like haven, right now, would be very hard to pull out, if not impossible.

I see that there are some limitation about how to implement it in the open world, but I also think that, being the easiest option, turn based would be also the easiest one to fix, to balance and, in short, to adapt to the game.

I don't think that what we have right now is balanced, smooth, fair or particularly fun ..... otherwise we wouldn't be talking about a new combat system all the time.

EDIT: and also you can look at AAA titles, and see how combat sucks badly even for them ... cause MMO are not good fighting games. So if AAA are struggling, I can't see how we could do better than them.

[Lyrroth]

Super mobs to fight, stealth, ambush mechanics, tactics, tracking, dungeons etc.. etc..

you live under impression of turn based combat, but it's very limiting type of combat. It wouldn't work for haven in any case or shape. It would cause far more trouble than it is now. Instead of using your imagination to see how "cool it would be" try to put your train of thoughts opposite way and see how terrible it would be.

EVERYTHING You said would work better as NON-turn based combat. You can't be as flexible with turn based combat as with normal one. Also, stealth? How do You see it? Getting invisible, attacking someone from behind which turns combat, or You go invisible and suddenly someone knows He's being attacked since world turned into turn based combat? Not to say how much alt shit this is exploitable.


Also, for people with directional or aoe attacks, I'm so afraid that would turn just into who has better bot on top...

[sMartins]

Super mobs to fight, stealth, ambush mechanics, tactics, tracking, dungeons etc.. etc..

you live under impression of turn based combat, but it's very limiting type of combat. It wouldn't work for haven in any case or shape. It would cause far more trouble than it is now. Instead of using your imagination to see how "cool it would be" try to put your train of thoughts opposite way and see how terrible it would be.

EVERYTHING You said would work better as NON-turn based combat. You can't be as flexible with turn based combat as with normal one. Also, stealth? How do You see it? Getting invisible, attacking someone from behind which turns combat, or You go invisible and suddenly someone knows He's being attacked since world turned into turn based combat? Not to say how much alt shit this is exploitable.


Also, for people with directional or aoe attacks, I'm so afraid that would turn just into who has better bot on top...

It's the easier one, so it's also the best one to make it "good", and to add stuff.
If you ever played games with turn based combat, you already know all the possibilities it would open, much more in depth experience, and fun also. (an actual "gaming" feature that haven is lacking right now).
Look at Unreal World, Fallout, and all the major rogue likes of the past.
If you think that what we have right now is better, I'm not agree at all.

About the stealth, exactly .... you have stealth vs perception, you can hide, but there is a minimum distance where you'll always be spotted, so you can ambush your enemy, and start the fight when he's closer you can to you. Once the combat start you can add some bonus, etc.. cause you ambushed your target, etc... so maybe you start with more initiative, etc... it has endless possibilities. ( if you are naked you can move faster = more action points, etc... etc... endless)

EVERYTHING You said would work better as NON-turn based combat.

How? having stats and spamming a couple of buttons? there is not actual "playing" in that. While turn based is a game in itself.

EDIT:
We can even re-add easily full permadeath with a system like that. I mean we would have a completly new "speed" and "positioning" dimension to play with.

[Aceb]

Let me remind you both games You said are both single players, not MMOs or even multiplayer of any sorts. you have no idea how it would turn out with players, not dumb "ai"

also, I played Fallout online for a bit, and as far as I remember, with something else than 2vs2, like getting ganked it was sort of a broken and very much exploitable. and not fun.

[sMartins]

let me remind you both games You said are both single players, not MMOs or even multiplayer of any sorts. you have no idea how it would turn out with players, not dumb "ai"

Yeah that's true ... that's why I was looking for online games that use that. I'm looking at wakfu, it's completly different from haven, but it seems is working very well there.
But again, all the systems have this issue ... I expect that would be easier to fix, if the system is easier overall.
There is no perfection, we already know that.
The thing is to find the most fun, and that can work well on a game like haven. All the others are too expensive on the technical side to work well.
Look at "Life is Feudal" ... oh god.

We may try with a super very very simplistic version in valhalla. With just move, attack and some points and see what people think about.
Also, with trees, rocks .... if you hide behind them you can have a shield status from arrows, etc... ranged weapons, more I think about it more I think would be awesome.


Going back to our roots :

[maze]

I honestly would not mind if realms each had there own combat style that they could pick from. They could change it every 24 hours.

Would give HnH a really unqic combat system.