population of haven for w11

[hushpuppi3]

I've been contacting my friends that are interested in colony sims and indie games and I've actually got a handful on the hook that are going to try it out in the new world

I think a lot of people who join into a 3 year old world dont stick around because it seems pointless when people already have inflated stats, you're finding q900 crops everywhere, abandoned settlements you can take over and instantly establish yourself


new worlds are the best case scenario for a new player

[dafels]

I think it will hit 68 hundreds of players atleast this world, because haven is getting DAMN BIG

[Mafious]

the people i used to play with seem to have moved on or have stuff going RL. i will probably start playing but how actively or for how long idk.

[MagicManICT]

I think a lot of people who join into a 3 year old world dont stick around because it seems pointless when people already have inflated stats, you're finding q900 crops everywhere, abandoned settlements you can take over and instantly establish yourself

Not sure you're getting "3 years" at...

but you do make some good points on things needing to decay out of the world faster. Crops would be one of the first things to go (taken over by nature). Old structures that could be repaired should be the last. If players want the better crops and such, they can always trade for them.

but also worth noting this is an MMO, which as a part of the definition means it should be a persistent world, not one that gets reset.

[VDZ]

Good question. We've had some performance problems around launches before, but a lot of those have been bugs and stuff that has actually been fixed since, so I don't think we actually know. I would guesstimate that we reach full capacity at around 1500 players or so. Hard to say.

There are improvements in the pipe to potentially increase that number significantly, but they have thus far never been a priority.

i seriously think it will get higher than 1500 prob should have that improvement on hand at launch of w11.

I don't think the odds of getting 1500+ concurrent logged in accounts are that high, but the possibility certainly exists. 1500 max capacity seems dangerously low.

I think a lot of people who join into a 3 year old world dont stick around because it seems pointless when people already have inflated stats, you're finding q900 crops everywhere, abandoned settlements you can take over and instantly establish yourself

Not sure you're getting "3 years" at...

but you do make some good points on things needing to decay out of the world faster. Crops would be one of the first things to go (taken over by nature).

That wouldn't really solve anything. Even after only just starting it's trivial to trade for crazy high quality stuff that at that point is considered subpar in the global economy. The only time when most goods (especially of decent quality) are genuinely scarce is at the start of a world.

but also worth noting this is an MMO, which as a part of the definition means it should be a persistent world, not one that gets reset.

Says who? An MMO only needs to be 'massively multiplayer online' - any persistence beyond that is optional, even if it is the standard. But if we're going by standards, all MMORPGs should be WoW clones...

[MagicManICT]

Says who? An MMO only needs to be 'massively multiplayer online' - any persistence beyond that is optional, even if it is the standard. But if we're going by standards, all MMORPGs should be WoW clones...

You're right. An RPG doesn't have to be persistent. An MMO doesn't "have to be" persistent. Do you have an example of an MMORPG that isn't persistent, though, at least one that has reached a "released" state and isn't in the state of major changes such as Haven is? I can think of exactly one example, and it has no more players than Haven does, and the core design is around world progression and reset when end goals are reached.

And if you want to speak of cloning RPGs, let's go back to what WoW really is: Everquest Lite.

[VDZ]

Says who? An MMO only needs to be 'massively multiplayer online' - any persistence beyond that is optional, even if it is the standard. But if we're going by standards, all MMORPGs should be WoW clones...

You're right. An RPG doesn't have to be persistent. An MMO doesn't "have to be" persistent. Do you have an example of an MMORPG that isn't persistent, though, at least one that has reached a "released" state and isn't in the state of major changes such as Haven is? I can think of exactly one example, and it has no more players than Haven does, and the core design is around world progression and reset when end goals are reached.

Well, major changes and wipes go hand-in-hand, even once a game is 'released'. Rust is a popular example of a game that's often called an MMO (it's a bit less clear as there are tons of servers including player-run ones, but you're with 100-200 players online at a time on a server and it has a persistent world and progression like an MMO) that gets frequent wipes (I think they're still doing forced once-per-month wipes? Most servers wipe weekly at least). Beyond that it gets harder to name games people have heard of because all the popular MMOs are WoW clones. One other MMO (very obscure though) with wipes I play myself is 'A Tractor' (formerly known as The Universal) which is an economy sim (usually - it's a highly unusual game) in which worlds are always transient things, ending at some point and being replaced with newer worlds.

There's also the interesting case of Kingdom of Loathing, which is 100% persistent (last I checked at least), but in which players reset their personal progress after reaching a certain point of progression to unlock special benefits. (The system is called 'ascension' and ranges from just being reset to level 1 and having to redo all of your quests to also losing access to all of your money and items and most ascension benefits and becoming unable to trade with other players until you finish that run.)

But again, nobody else doing something is no reason not to do it. Haven is a very unique game that's already doing plenty of things no other game does in the way Haven does, and wipes could be a solution fitting Haven even if it doesn't fit other games.

[MagicManICT]

Rust is a popular example of a game that's often called an MMO (it's a bit less clear as there are tons of servers including player-run ones, but you're with 100-200 players online at a time on a server and it has a persistent world and progression like an MMO

Rust and Minecraft are a couple of games that blur the lines, but you're still talking only a couple hundred people when games like EVE can cram a thousand or more into a single system. (Last time I was on, Jita, the primary trade hub, was about 1200 on peak hours.) Funny thing is that the traditional MMOs like EQ, WoW, and others have instanced their games so much you never see more than a few people in your area unless there's something going on, like holiday stuff, or something player organized.

I know of one true MMORPG that has consistent world resets, and that's A Tale in the Desert. The game is designed around that, though, and they don't occur at the whim of the developers. EQ and EQ2 have progression servers that go back through old content as it was released at player votes. When all content has been progressed through, players can vote to reset and start over from the beginning again. Beyond that, I don't know of any game that fits the original definition of MMO. There was one point in time I could have said that I had played most of the MMOs in existence, but there have gotten to be so many in the last 10 years, I won't even attempt to say it, and I can't say I'm even close to correct in my knowledge, but I haven't ran across a one that reset regularly, sand box or theme park, other than the three I mentioned.

There's also the interesting case of Kingdom of Loathing, which is 100% persistent (last I checked at least), but in which players reset their personal progress after reaching a certain point of progression to unlock special benefits. (The system is called 'ascension' and ranges from just being reset to level 1 and having to redo all of your quests to also losing access to all of your money and items and most ascension benefits and becoming unable to trade with other players until you finish that run.)

I've ran across a couple of other games that have generational benefits for you when you lose a character. It's starting to become a thing in permadeath games. And I've seen West of Loathing on Steam. It looked interesting. I didn't realize it was a part of something much older.

But again, nobody else doing something is no reason not to do it. Haven is a very unique game that's already doing plenty of things no other game does in the way Haven does, and wipes could be a solution fitting Haven even if it doesn't fit other games.

your'e right. But I just don't see it. It's a part of the reason I've only half played the last few years. This was the first world that ran long enough for me to actually want to play it deeply, and I've been half expecting a wipe for the new housing designs. Why build up something that isn't going to last? I realize it's an online game and nothing is going to last, anyway, but while I'm here, I want to be able to come back to it when I want. I mean, I still have my first EQ character from nearly 20 years ago. If that wasn't there, I'm not sure I'd ever log into EQ again. The leveling is just... painful. You do something enough times, and it gets boring and annoying. (It's why I finally quit playing Diablo 3, and getting tired of it in Path of Exile.)

[VDZ]

There's also the interesting case of Kingdom of Loathing, which is 100% persistent (last I checked at least), but in which players reset their personal progress after reaching a certain point of progression to unlock special benefits. (The system is called 'ascension' and ranges from just being reset to level 1 and having to redo all of your quests to also losing access to all of your money and items and most ascension benefits and becoming unable to trade with other players until you finish that run.)

I've ran across a couple of other games that have generational benefits for you when you lose a character. It's starting to become a thing in permadeath games.

No, you misunderstand. You don't get benefits for passively losing your character. You get benefits for proactively killing your character. It's not a consolation price for failing to keep your progress, but rather a game mechanic encouraging you to start over, resulting in the whole game being played repeatedly rather than getting stuck in a static endgame. In that sense, it's a lot like a wipe (except you get long-term benefits out of it). I think something like this could be viable for Haven as well; I'm not sure if it will ever be viable to keep progression 100% and not wipe, but player-initiated 'partial wipes' could add a lot of replayability.

Why build up something that isn't going to last? I realize it's an online game and nothing is going to last, anyway, but while I'm here, I want to be able to come back to it when I want. I mean, I still have my first EQ character from nearly 20 years ago. If that wasn't there, I'm not sure I'd ever log into EQ again. The leveling is just... painful. You do something enough times, and it gets boring and annoying.

I feel the opposite way. Whenever I come back after being away for some time, I end up ignoring my old character and just decide to start all over again. I've restarted tons of times since world 5, including once at every world reset, and I've never gotten tired of it.