Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

[sabinati]

really though the more important thing is the amount of support infrastructure to produce metal, it's not just as simple as going into a mine for an hour and coming out.

[Elirian]

partly that, but also, they are limited in the fact that there is not an infinite amount of ore in them.

This still doesn't seem to make any sense (from a design point of view). From a mine owners point of view it does, but I think we established that the mine owners are not hoarding and we're actually looking at a balance issue already?

[Elirian]

really though the more important thing is the amount of support infrastructure to produce metal, it's not just as simple as going into a mine for an hour and coming out.

There's obviously a ridiculously high return on the infrastructure investment however, or people would debate 'can I make this work' rather than there being an all out race for iron.

[spectacle]

You're also forgetting about the time and effort needed to set up and do a trade. This is time that could otherwise be spent gathering resources, so the miner will want to be compensated for this effort. Metal is a seller's market, so other traders just have to deal with that.

[Elirian]

You're also forgetting about the time and effort needed to set up and do a trade. This is time that could otherwise be spent gathering resources, so the miner will want to be compensated for this effort. Metal is a seller's market, so other traders just have to deal with that.

Not forgetting at all, in fact I rather think you're supporting my point? Calling it a 'sellers market' and leaving it at that misses the underlying cause. Both players have to give up their time from gathering resources in order to do a trade, however the game considers the iron miners time more valuable than anyone elses by a factor of eight.

So if each party has to take an hour out of their gathering time to travel there, do the deal, and travel back, the iron miner expects eight times as much compensation. It's a little more complex than that because the compensation is actually part of that factor of eight, but it serves to explain why the miner expects compensation. In reality, they both expect compensation, the miner just expects more.

[Zamte]

I stated it a bit simply, but you need to consider a lot more than simply how much ore you get in a period of time. Once ore is collected, it needs to be smelted, smelted ore (if you're not happy with cast) needs to be refined in a finery forge to get wrought.

Thing is, 40 bars out of six chests + inventory is about average, but it varies a lot. The other day I got a load with just my boat (94 ore as opposed to 166) and pulled 18 bars of cast iron out of it. The load before that only earned me around 8 bars. Each ore has a chance to become iron, the number varies in how many actually do, and every smelter worth of 25 ore usually gives out at most 5-6 bars. It takes plenty of time and effort to get to the bars from the mining.

Metal is valuable because it's limited. Time is never worth the same because nobody is actually selling time. Time is simply used as a way to measure efficiency. If you're doing something I could easily do, even if I don't do it, then it has less value to me than me giving you something you could not otherwise get, and that is what causes the value. To me, iron's not a big deal. If I need it, I can go in under an hour and get as much cast iron as I need to get. I have what I need and then some. On the other hand somebody without access to iron looks at it as a precious resource, and thus it's worth more to them than it is to me. Meanwhile chantrelles may be worth more to me (because I don't like collecting them) than they are to the other guy who regularly goes to collect them. While this is true, they are certainly not beyond me to collect, and I can get them myself, thus their value is still low.

[Elirian]

I stated it a bit simply, but you need to consider a lot more than simply how much ore you get in a period of time. Once ore is collected, it needs to be smelted, smelted ore (if you're not happy with cast) needs to be refined in a finery forge to get wrought.

Thing is, 40 bars out of six chests + inventory is about average, but it varies a lot. The other day I got a load with just my boat (94 ore as opposed to 166) and pulled 18 bars of cast iron out of it. The load before that only earned me around 8 bars. Each ore has a chance to become iron, the number varies in how many actually do, and every smelter worth of 25 ore usually gives out at most 5-6 bars. It takes plenty of time and effort to get to the bars from the mining.

Sorry I'm not seeing how the fact that there are variations affects the average in any way? Some days you get 20, others you get 60. How is that relevant?

Metal is valuable because it's limited. Time is never worth the same because nobody is actually selling time. Time is simply used as a way to measure efficiency. If you're doing something I could easily do, even if I don't do it, then it has less value to me than me giving you something you could not otherwise get, and that is what causes the value.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Metal is the only truly limited resource, and the effect of that is that players with mines time is worth eight times more than players without mines. With time being the only resource in MMOs, that's a really bad idea.

[Lothaudus]

Metal is the only truly limited resource

Not entirely true. High Q Clay is pretty limited now. As is Soil and Water. All 3 can go for pretty high prices.

, and the effect of that is that players with mines time is worth eight times more than players without mines. With time being the only resource in MMOs, that's a really bad idea.

Alternatively, everyone has a mine and nobody trades for anything because why would you?

As I said before, there are plenty of other people out there who are willing to do better deals for metal.

[Zamte]

Prime example right here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7242

/shamelessplug

Really though, it's not as serious as you want to think because there's not a whole lot you need a constant supply of metal for. Metal plows are nice, but not essential, and everything else does not require repairs or does not require metal for repairs. You can happily trade a load of chantrelles (like I did before) for a few chests, then use those chests to store chantrelles which you trade for a couple of bars. Use those for a cellar, stone mansion, maybe to make a scythe if you're a farmer, and live happily.

[Elirian]

Alternatively, everyone has a mine and nobody trades for anything because why would you?

This is what is known as a false dilemma. There are many more options to create trade than the current system where one section of the playerbase is considered in some way more deserving than any other. See.... any game ever? Trying to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.