Dungeon rewards

[MagicManICT]

A thought occurred to me earlier, and I didn't see it mentioned (apologies if it was), but what about just changing them to a somewhat significant heal item? Better than ancient roots, but not so strong it'd screw with PvP balance? Put a TTL on them so that people can't just hoard them, and maybe a craft item so that it can be hung on a wall or something, but ruin it as a means of healing.

[Astarisk]

A thought occurred to me earlier, and I didn't see it mentioned (apologies if it was), but what about just changing them to a somewhat significant heal item? Better than ancient roots, but not so strong it'd screw with PvP balance? Put a TTL on them so that people can't just hoard them, and maybe a craft item so that it can be hung on a wall or something, but ruin it as a means of healing.

There's a lot of potential avenues that can be used to change up how heart containers are used. You could for example provide a cool down period of a week between usages, this would give you a predictable scaleable growth of at least 520 HP a year or so. As it remains its just an uncapped growth only limited by how fast you can obtain it. Personally I feel that the needles are a good enough reward for running beaver dungeons. You could even add in the potential to combine needles into a higher tier or make some fancy recipe out of them. There's a lot of possible solutions that could be explored that will keep the reward feeling cool.

[SaltyCrate]

Ye, if by effort you mean bot things you were going to bot anyway and sell your 5 generation old garbage for absurd prices to buy heart containers. It's literally a case of if you have the best anvil you can afford to pay the most for heart containers, so you get the most heart containers and it's passive as fuck.

There is no effort involved if you are doing it right.

I assume that what was meant by "no effort" method. Except, the heart containers have to come from somewhere. Some nab, probably in the company of others, have to clear the dungeon to get it in order to sell it to you. And that is the effort involved, as I find that people usually had better/more interesting things to do. It may not be as easily scalable to infinity as you might think it is.

And you may very well be right. The problem is that to get to 2k HP from con, you're looking at 4000 CON. Last world, this was nothing, and heart containers weren't a big deal.

Again, maybe it is just me, but so what? Let me put another example: if, hypothetically, tomorrow will be a patch which changes base hp formula gain from constitution to that of say x3 values, and so everyone will have 3 times their hp, then I wouldn't care much at all. It generally doesn't matter much. Unless you value an ability to one-shot people in of itself, which to me seems as a questionable design anyway.

Balance issues with a small mechanic that is broken may be meaningless when introduced, but you add in just the right change, and the small problem becomes a huge one--one that unbalances the game for all. If it is a small and mostly meaningless mechanic, then there's not much point in keeping it. OR it needs to be reworked into something with more balance in the game.

Haven is choke FULL of small and mostly meaningless mechanics. This is part of the game charm. And when/if it will become huge problem due to some future changes, then sure it may warrant fixing. But I am not seeing this particular mechanic to be a problem, let alone huge one.

We have to keep in mind that titan characters belong to groups with the best industries. They are not only beating you in stats, they are beating you in everything from armor quality to gildings. They not only have much higher health, they have much better damage mitigation and much higher damage output. Closing such a gap is nearly impossible.

And this is also part of the reason that I find arguing against heart containers of all things to be confusing. Its contribution to this power gap consist of maybe 1% if that. Wouldn't it better to join the generally known local crusade for stat caps or somesuch instead?

[Zentetsuken]

gobbledygook

Good lord that was a long winded way to say practically nothing at all.

There are no more arguments left to be made on the subject, the hearts have to go. Having them be just con makes them meaningless, why would somebody go through a whole dungeon just to get 10 con? They can simply be replaced with something fun and unique instead.

There are other great loot items in dungeons and more practical ones can be added alongside any number of trophy-like items.

There was no reason for this to be a 4 page discussion.

Let's see some brainstorming about cool and new dungeon loot ideas instead.

[Astarisk]

We have to keep in mind that titan characters belong to groups with the best industries. They are not only beating you in stats, they are beating you in everything from armor quality to gildings. They not only have much higher health, they have much better damage mitigation and much higher damage output. Closing such a gap is nearly impossible.

And this is also part of the reason that I find arguing against heart containers of all things to be confusing. Its contribution to this power gap consist of maybe 1% if that. Wouldn't it better to join the generally known local crusade for stat caps or somesuch instead?

The contribution to the power gap consists of way more than 1%. In terms of raw math heart containers are the most effective at increasing power. It is unaffected by any sort of cap or scaling put forth in the game. Damage, Quality, Con, Strength these all have some sort of sqrt modifier built into their equations reducing its effectiveness as it gets higher and making the gains ever less meaningful. Heart containers just provide a nice predictable and flat percentage increase to your power.

In regards to stat caps I've already laid out in previous instances my feelings towards them. I'd be more than happy to spew my thoughts on that topic again. (tldr; I don't believe the game has any sort of meaningful objective once stat raising is taken out of the game. I'd like to see systems that adds in real objectives and goals before they limit stats.) But that's irrelevant for this thread as we are talking about dungeon rewards here. Even if stat caps did exist you are still leaving in the game a way to raise your character with unlimited growth through heart containers. Stat caps wouldn't change the situation, we'd still see the same issues present in a system with stat caps.

[MagicManICT]

Haven is choke FULL of small and mostly meaningless mechanics. This is part of the game charm. And when/if it will become huge problem due to some future changes, then sure it may warrant fixing. But I am not seeing this particular mechanic to be a problem, let alone huge one.

This is something I agree with you on. It's the little things in any game that lend the charm it has. I'll have to say that when it is shown one of these mechanics is broken or flawed, the decision has to be made on how to fix it or get rid of it.

Good lord that was a long winded way to say practically nothing at all.

I got what he was saying. Some of us just have to be more verbose to get a point across. Some people can say in a single sentence what takes others a whole paragraph. /shrug You've accused me of the same thing and only reason I comment on it here. That's a part of a public debate everyone just has to learn to accept.

There are no more arguments left to be made on the subject, the hearts have to go. Having them be just con makes them meaningless, why would somebody go through a whole dungeon just to get 10 con? They can simply be replaced with something fun and unique instead.

Will agree that there really isn't much more to say (at least as I see it), I can't say making them "just con" makes them meaningless. I'm not sure anyone would run a dungeon just for 10 con, but with the other items, maybe? Maybe you're right and a few other items to sweeten the pot would be needed to replace the "less worthy" hearts.

edit: accidentally hit 'submit' instead of 'quote' and wanted to add that last section. If nobody saw my post before the edit, I guess you can just disregard this statement

[azrid]

Ye, if by effort you mean bot things you were going to bot anyway and sell your 5 generation old garbage for absurd prices to buy heart containers. It's literally a case of if you have the best anvil you can afford to pay the most for heart containers, so you get the most heart containers and it's passive as fuck.

There is no effort involved if you are doing it right.

I assume that what was meant by "no effort" method. Except, the heart containers have to come from somewhere. Some nab, probably in the company of others, have to clear the dungeon to get it in order to sell it to you. And that is the effort involved, as I find that people usually had better/more interesting things to do. It may not be as easily scalable to infinity as you might think it is.

You conveniently left out how people run bots to find them. That is the no effort part. There are other methods to make finding dungeons easier as well.
People who argue its not so easy to get hearts are poor in both mind and wealth. Games shouldn't be balanced around unskilled players.
Running the actual dungeon shouldn't be considered effort. I still find it fun and fresh thanks to the randomized loot. The heart container for the easy dungeons is just way too OP.

[SaltyCrate]

You conveniently left out how people run bots to find them. That is the no effort part. There are other methods to make finding dungeons easier as well.

Given how I quoted you in the first place, it was you who left it out. Also bot argument can be applied to almost every mechanic in the game to question its balance. Therefore it is really not an argument, but a separate problem altogether.

People who argue its not so easy to get hearts are poor in both mind and wealth. Games shouldn't be balanced around unskilled players.

Sounds like ad hominem, but anyway when I was playing earlier this world as part of the group our industry was around top 3. Still we didn't care about hearts when we were rich enough to buy it in unlimited amounts.

Running the actual dungeon shouldn't be considered effort. I still find it fun and fresh thanks to the randomized loot. The heart container for the easy dungeons is just way too OP.

Good for you. Really. My experience tells otherwise - almost everyone I know find it interesting maybe first 2-3 times. After that it is a chore which no one bothers to do. I am actually surprised that someone still find other dungeon loot worth it. Even needles and insights were generally considered not quite worth the time spent about 3 months into the world.

Good lord that was a long winded way to say practically nothing at all.
There are no more arguments left to be made on the subject, the hearts have to go.

You literally gave no arguments in this thread besides "bad bad bad". I think you don't quite get the base concept behind "C&I" subforum.

[azrid]

bot argument can be applied to almost every mechanic in the game to question its balance. Therefore it is really not an argument, but a separate problem altogether.

Disagree. Changes have been made before based on what people bot. Developers don't see a way to make people stop botting so all we can do is guide them on what to band aid.

we didn't care about hearts when we were rich enough to buy it in unlimited amounts.
Dungeons are a chore which no one bothers to do.

Why care so much about a mechanic you barely take part in? You or your kind will not be affected by this nerf.

[SaltyCrate]

Why care so much about a mechanic you barely take part in? You or your kind will not be affected by this nerf.

Well, removing heart containers from the game would make dungeons even more boring for me. But other than this - yes, it wouldn't. My point isn't that I dislike how I personally would be affected by the changes, but that it all seem pointless waste of devs time and not just because it does not affect me, but because rationale behind it is either lacking or just not sufficiently explained.
Let me put in another way. If you watch Jorb's streams you could remember plenty of times when he was told by someone in chat that something or other was broken. His usual paraphrazed answer to this was asking "How/why is it broken?". And he usually moves on couple of minutes later when he gets no answer or not convincing one.
Your OP is stating that hearts are OP and should be changed and thats it. Why? The reasons for this might be obvious to you, but they aren't as obvious to others. And, sure, further there were some attempts to provide this reasoning. I found it generally weak and tried to explain why I did so. That's fine, I am not the dev and you don't have to convince me. I am just saying that you might not convince the devs with what you said so far. And they might be less inclined to answer this at all - there are enough garbage threads in C&I.