99% of PVP/permadeath woes are an onboarding issue

[IsThisRad]

^ This is what you have to fix to make people stop crying about PVP & permadeath being too scary ^

JORBTAR, I beg you hear my plea. No more ground can be ceded to these little FREAKS who are asking for "PVE worlds" and "offline Haven". They know not what they ask for. They think they know what they want, but they don't.

People, new players, complain about "full loot PVP" & permadeath and "losing" their character because they don't understand how minor of a setback these things actually are. This is not necessarily because they are stupid, it's more likely because the game has failed to give them important information about systems in place that would help them understand why these elements are in the game in the first place.

A small list of best practices and implications that a player does not know/realize if they have not read the forums or the wiki:

• I should be plucking every kind of tree and chipping every rock and crafting every item to get a boost of LP to progress my character efficiently
• What foods I should be eating for FEP (bad hearthling, no eat roast meat and fruit off tree)
• How combat even works, first shit getting rocked by an animal moment pending, followed by having to find a guide on the internet to make it click
• Not a good idea to initial pave and settle within map render distance of water, if you don't want to be gotten by patrol gangs
• Not a good idea to initial settle not in a cave, if you don't want your hide stolen
• That inheritance exists, like at all

The game is hardest when the player first starts out, when there is the most friction between the player and the game due to trying to learn how all these systems work, or that they exist in the first place. Three big scenarios where the player says fuck it and quits:

• I have cumulatively lost so much HHP my character feels like a liability to continue to use, I have too much concussion and now I feel like I can't play, I'm going back to Minecraft
• I just got obliterated by three dudes on a boat who keep coming back and kicking my ass and I didn't even know I had to set up a combat deck, this game is surely rigged, and they are surely botting. In fact, everyone but me is botting I think
• My character just died and now I just STRAIGHT UP LOST THREE HOURS AND MY CHARACTER IS GONE NGHAAAAGHGHAAARGH!!! (rare) (and untrue)

They are helpless creatures. While they are learning and playing inefficiently, that three hours feels very long, and full of friction, and they have less to show for it than anyone else. When they don't even know they can inherit, death will obviously feel like a brick wall and they will rage quit, because they feel that there's no point to committing to the time it takes to get invested. Obviously 80% of them are going to stop playing. No amount of Rage shenanigans or "Ragehide" or whatever is going to actually fix this problem. Dying IS fun, and PVP looms over the game at large in a unique and positive way, but you have not shown the player that this is the case and that this whole thing isn't just a big shitpost at their expense.

WHAT YOU NEED TO DO TO MAKE PLAYERS NOT HATE PVP/PERMADEATH as much:

• Add an experience event on death that informs the player through rosy prose that death isn't the end, to make them feel like the game has not abandoned them in death and this is an intended experience as part of the game rather than an NES style fail state where they start over
• Add an "inherit" or "Rise!" button to the YOU ARE DEAD menu above the "Move on" button that bypasses the character creation process and allows you to inherit. Let the player enter a new character name or just throw a "II" or "III" etc etc at the end. You need to make this process seamless and obvious and eliminate the eight hour penalty, otherwise the entire system is moot for a new player. If you need to make it so there's a time penalty over a certain amount of stats to prevent abuse then whatever
• Implement a "tax bracket" system for inheritance, where the player, regardless of body burial status, retains 100% of stats up to 10, 50% up to 20 or 25, then the normal ranges with the burial mechanic thereafter. This isn't going to matter at all for an experienced player, but losing more of those stats weighs way more when you're day 1 on your first world and those are the highest stats you've ever had
• In the character creation realm, have some sort of experience event or dialogue or SOMETHING to initially communicate to the player that, again, dying is fun and a formative part of the Haven experience and isn't something they need to be petrified about. Blatantly rip off project zomboid's "This is how you died" thing if you have to idc but you have to make sure they understand this or you will keep bleeding new players
• Figure out some way to onboard players more effectively/communicate more info/some small level of direction on early game best practices to the player
• Especially with combat! Figure out some kind of tutorial or something if you have to, god damn!

This IS handholding, but it's important handholding that isn't disruptive and can reinforce what you're already going for if you work it in narratively. Again, I am hammering this in, but if you can communicate this to players and make them realize it's okay/fun to die, they will be more willing to trudge through what they now understand is a setback rather than a major failstate, and people will be more willing to engage with PVP, which means the game will be healthier and less bitter as a whole. And you can stop dealing with this disgusting headache on things like how to implement reasons to not get Rage that don't have stupid ramifications no one likes, and making PVP impotent in a way that neuters the game and makes everyone unhappy.

I beg you consider, because I want lots and lots of players to begin and continue playing your game so you guys earn lots and lots of money so you can keep making this game that I love, until either you or I die. Whichever comes first (I am 12 so it will be you)

[linkfanpc]

[*]Implement a "tax bracket" system for inheritance, where the player, regardless of body burial status, retains 100% of stats up to 10, 50% up to 20 or 25, then the normal ranges with the burial mechanic thereafter. This isn't going to matter at all for an experienced player, but losing more of those stats weighs way more when you're day 1 on your first world and those are the highest stats you've ever had

never thought about this but yea i dont see why not

Add an "inherit" or "Rise!" button to the YOU ARE DEAD menu above the "Move on" button that bypasses the character creation process and allows you to inherit. Let the player enter a new character name or just throw a "II" or "III" etc etc at the end. You need to make this process seamless and obvious and eliminate the eight hour penalty, otherwise the entire system is moot for a new player. If you need to make it so there's a time penalty over a certain amount of stats to prevent abuse then whatever

also a good idea. the death/inherit system is too vague.

[Grumpkin]

Just tell new players that this game has no Terms of Service, no anti-cheat and no player reporting system. You are free to do things that would get you permanently banned in any other online game because the developers choose to blame themselves rather than punish players who cheat.
This is the truth new players should know.

[IsThisRad]

also a good idea. the death/inherit system is too vague.

thanks girliepop <3

... This is the truth new players should know.

I think this kind of a weird response to this post but please elaborate on the kinds of issues lack of anti-cheat is enabling, Mr Grumpkin

[Regulus2424]

everything in this thread is based and true

[gravesmerch]

default client is actually a filter for the plebs, aesthetic wise, UI wise, but the craziest aspect of vanilla is when an aggressive animal sneaks into playerview behind those huge trees, how are these plebs even able to walk around snakes and bears i have no idea

[Grumpkin]

default client is actually a filter for the plebs, aesthetic wise, UI wise, but the craziest aspect of vanilla is when an aggressive animal sneaks into playerview behind those huge trees, how are these plebs even able to walk around snakes and bears i have no idea

That's actually decent game design for a sandbox survival game. How else could wild animals pose a threat to the player? You didn't see or hear the animal because you stormed through a dense forest and were not careful enough.
Playing on a custom client with every tree and bush hidden, a big red circle around wild animals, and audio notifications isn't the intended way to play.

In a perfect world, we would all self-insert LARP on the vanilla client and it would be beautiful.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

default client is actually a filter for the plebs, aesthetic wise, UI wise, but the craziest aspect of vanilla is when an aggressive animal sneaks into playerview behind those huge trees, how are these plebs even able to walk around snakes and bears i have no idea

That's actually decent game design for a sandbox survival game. How else could wild animals pose a threat to the player? You didn't see or hear the animal because you stormed through a dense forest and were not careful enough.
Playing on a custom client with every tree and bush hidden, a big red circle around wild animals, and audio notifications isn't the intended way to play.

In a perfect world, we would all self-insert LARP on the vanilla client and it would be beautiful.

I wonder what the server computational cost would be of detecting LOS to all animals (and I guess other hearthlings) prior to transmitting information allowing render on the client.
Could make forests spookier for people on foot, at least.

Would basically be irrelevant once people use vehicles for transport though, which is... uhh... quite early in the game.

Tangentially: How about adding regrowing or unremovable thicket, centered around every thingwall, to make alt-bot spotting on them less useful?

[linkfanpc]

thingcreature that stalks thingwalls like the smoke from lost, forcefully KOes and hearths you if you're standing around thingwalls for too long

[Robben_DuMarsch]

thingcreature that stalks thingwalls like the smoke from lost, forcefully KOes and hearths you if you're standing around thingwalls for too long

I like it. Would need to consider mechanical implications though.