Prelude: Happy New World!

[MagicManICT]

I'm not saying that i want it gone because i don't have time for the game, I'm saying I want it gone, because i want this game to become unshackled from a sentimental punishment that has done nothing but hinder it.

I could make an analogy about the idealism of permadeath in H&H, but I'm loathe to bring up politics in this thread any more than making this statement.

I'm not tied to the mechanic one way or the other. I've been playing games with harsh death penalties for a while now.

[wolf1000wolf]

A look at what our devs themselves say HnH aspires to be:
http://www.havenandhearth.com/portal/about

While permadeath might be an important part of making sure choices are "meaningful", nothing about the casual player getting wrecked without recourse promotes a "fun gaming experience" . It certainly won't be the foundation on which players are incentivized to "be able to organize themselves into societies, from simple tribes and villages, progressing through republics, nation states and, ultimately, empires."

Atamzsiktrop says stuff that makes sense sometimes then he adds things like

I'm totally a huge griefer and I kill every noob I see, lol. God Granger you're pathetic. If the game is too hard for you then quit.

and makes me think this game would be better without people like him. At least if the goal is to grow the playerbase so we can have civilization anyways.

[Atamzsiktrop]

I've never felt more unconnected with a character, than I am with my 10 alts, which permadeath has made a necessity

In what way does it make pvp competitive, 80% of pvp is outnumbering your enemy 3 to 1

1. Yeah I bet you care for that alt same as for your main. Who are you kidding?
2. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Plus, how does a 3v1 (gank usually) or whatever other ratio of outnumbering make pvp NOT competitive? Would you say csgo or Dota aren't competitive when 1 person dies and it becomes 5v4?

[Kirche]

I've never felt more unconnected with a character, than I am with my 10 alts, which permadeath has made a necessity

In what way does it make pvp competitive, 80% of pvp is outnumbering your enemy 3 to 1

1. Yeah I bet you care for that alt same as for your main. Who are you kidding?
2. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Plus, how does a 3v1 (gank usually) or whatever other ratio of outnumbering make pvp NOT competitive? Would you say csgo or Dota aren't competitive when 1 person dies and it becomes 5v4?

1. my main is my crafter, it is the only one that i care about, and it never enters harms way

2. this is a false equivalence

[Atamzsiktrop]

A look at what our devs themselves say HnH aspires to be:
http://www.havenandhearth.com/portal/about

While permadeath might be an important part of making sure choices are "meaningful", nothing about the casual player getting wrecked without recourse promotes a "fun gaming experience" . It certainly won't be the foundation on which players are incentivized to "be able to organize themselves into societies, from simple tribes and villages, progressing through republics, nation states and, ultimately, empires."

Some games aren't targeted to casuals and who says they're core part of player count already? This would have to be monitored.

and makes me think this game would be better without people like him. At least if the goal is to grow the playerbase so we can have civilization anyways.

Irony is real hard to catch (unless you mean the part where I call Granger pathetic, and fail to see where he called pro-permadeath players retards) but let me help you: no, I don't usually grief or kill noobs.

[Avu]

Regarding keeping and removing pvp the two opposing sides arguments are:
-permadeath is the core identity of the game and without it what is haven will be lost
and
-permadeath is holding the game back due to driving away countless potential players both old and new

The argument for core identity is a decent one however it is not the only thing that attracts people to the game (even though a lot of the ones still playing do value it however they are not that many realistically speaking). Many people myself included like the way one can shape his environment around him, building up their larp farm or efficient farm, driving up quality, interacting with other people in non destructive pvp (quality envy was ever a big thing for us, we had to have as best quality as we could and if someone else had it we had to try at least and match it), foraging, hunting, finding rare metals. The game has lots and lots of fun things that don't involve getting pvp-ed to death forever while you go about your business. What is clear to everyone sane though it is driving away a lot of people from even trying the game let alone stick with it. It also attracts a certain kind of player that thrives on making others miserable, exploiters, cheaters and other unsavory types. They thrive when the player numbers are low because then they can have the most impact. Full unrestricted permadeath pvp sounds great in theory but in practice we get haven population numbers.

[Fierce_Deity]

Heyo new world time. New payment system looks good, i'll be subbing. I just have one request regarding map generation. Can cave levels not mirror each other this world? I mean with the tunnels and caverns matching on layers 2-5. Other features for caves would be nice, but this is my biggest sticking point with them.

[Atamzsiktrop]

I've never felt more unconnected with a character, than I am with my 10 alts, which permadeath has made a necessity

In what way does it make pvp competitive, 80% of pvp is outnumbering your enemy 3 to 1

1. Yeah I bet you care for that alt same as for your main. Who are you kidding?
2. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Plus, how does a 3v1 (gank usually) or whatever other ratio of outnumbering make pvp NOT competitive? Would you say csgo or Dota aren't competitive when 1 person dies and it becomes 5v4?

1. my main is my crafter, it is the only one that i care about, and it never enters harms way

Sorry, I read it wrong. I thought you said you were as connected with alts as with main.
Well, I have to agree that alts kinda destroy the purpose of permadeath as of right now, but I'd say it's a problem with them being too common rather than permadeath itself. They wouldn't go away with permadeath and it doesn't make them necessary. People would still make crafters, fighters, explorers - multiple of them.

As of 2, then explain to me how pvp is not competitive in Haven?

[Atamzsiktrop]

The argument for core identity is a decent one however it is not the only thing that attracts people to the game (even though a lot of the ones still playing do value it however they are not that many realistically speaking).

You say that but you don't have any proof. This would have to be monitored and it wasn't in any way. I know a lot of people though that value permadeath and found this game thanks to it.

If you're talking about start vs end world playercount (only thing that comes to my mind) then how do you know it wouldn't be the same anyway?

[Avu]

Some games aren't targeted to casuals and who says they're core part of player count already? This would have to be monitored.

Irony is real hard to catch (unless you mean the part where I call Granger pathetic, and fail to see where he called pro-permadeath players retards) but let me help you: no, I don't usually grief or kill noobs.

Games that don't at least allow casuals (by your standards and mine in the past I'm a casual yet I have no life outside of work all I do is play games yet work takes a huge chunk of my time) in some form usually just die. Like it or not most casuals work and people that work can afford to support games. I'm not saying design the game for casuals but fucking let them live.