Why specifically does the combat system suck?

[AlexNT]

A notion is often floated around these forums, that the current combat system is not very good. And from personal experience -- it does feel somewhat clunky and unfun, but I cannot quite put my finger on what exactly is the reason.

The premise seems to be reasonable: a real-time card game. But somehow it doesn't work out?

Any thoughts on why specifically that may be the case (bad ui/bad move variety/too many moves/too many variables to track in real time/too fast/too slow/...?)? Or am I completely off base and the combat is fine?

[azrid]

Because a card game with no turn order and only a handful of same cards for years always feels bad.
Jorb and Loftar need to try a world with an actual turn based combat system.
We also need new cards to play with! They should also implement rotating card sets and keep adding new ones like any decent card game these days.

[MagicManICT]

Because a card game with no turn order and only a handful of same cards for years always feels bad.

Pretty much my feel on it. Lack of variety in the system. The old system (legacy) with a good bit more variety still suffered its issues with lack of variety. Even when it was there, few people used it.

Jorb and Loftar need to try a world with an actual turn based combat system.

That would be terrible with the current system, and by system, I mean the entirety of game mechanics, not just combat. (edit) Note I'm not saying it couldn't be done. I've played a couple other games that have, but it's require a massive revamp of a lot of things.

Also, things like a bad UI don't help any.

[strpk0]

For PvP its probably one of the more fun aspects of haven once you learn it. Not sure why someone would think its bad there, and I kind of hope they stick with the current system instead of wasting time on a new one that could potentially be worse. The biggest issue here is that the game isn't great at explaining it so player's first PvP experience often is "what the fuck is going on" and "why am I KOed".

For PvE, sure it sucks but I can't see how they could make it any more fun (or if its meant to be). The biggest issue is that you're forced to cheese everything since wounds and armor damage suck so much.

Also, things like a bad UI don't help any.

Very true, the default client combat UI is near unusable (also the lack of a drinking hotkey).

[MagicManICT]

For PvP its probably one of the more fun aspects of haven once you learn it. Not sure why someone would think its bad there, and I kind of hope they stick with the current system instead of wasting time on a new one that could potentially be worse. The biggest issue here is that the game isn't great at explaining it so player's first PvP experience often is "what the fuck is going on" and "why am I KOed".

The PvP is pretty much the same from legacy until now. The combat system hasn't seemed to matter. Even the Salem system was designed with that same movement combat in mind. (It just suffered from latency issues as people from all over the world were using the same central server.)

[DDDsDD999]

The PvP is pretty much the same from legacy until now.

[MagicManICT]

The PvP is pretty much the same from legacy until now.

Then: running around the map trying to OpKnock folks to get in a cleave. Fights away from the base were basically a stamina match of who could stay in/out of range the best.

Now: running around the map trying to OpKnock folks to get in a top damage cleave. Fights don't happen at bases because nobody wants to deal with siege.

Am I that wrong? I know I'm oversimplifying it, but in a nutshell, that's it.

[vatas]

Not the textbook definitions of these terms, but based on posts above, while combat on tactical level (actual method of dealing damage to opponent upon contact) has changed a lot, the combat on strategic level is the same (objective is to either flee to safety or catch the people fleeing, depending on which side you are.)

[DDDsDD999]

Then: running around the map trying to OpKnock folks to get in a cleave. Fights away from the base were basically a stamina match of who could stay in/out of range the best.

Now: running around the map trying to OpKnock folks to get in a top damage cleave. Fights don't happen at bases because nobody wants to deal with siege.

Am I that wrong? I know I'm oversimplifying it, but in a nutshell, that's it.

Op knock was a pretty minor move in legacy, and cleave was never used. Legacy was all about movement hits and clipping. I don't understand what you're trying to say about stamina or being near bases.

the combat on strategic level is the same (objective is to either flee to safety or catch the people fleeing, depending on which side you are.)

I mean, yeah, that's what happens when one side doesn't want to fight. That's not what happens when both sides are evenish and both want to fight.

[MagicManICT]

Op knock was a pretty minor move in legacy, and cleave was never used. Legacy was all about movement hits and clipping. I don't understand what you're trying to say about stamina or being near bases.

Specific techniques aside, it was still the positional play and running around. Being near a base was less of a chase than it otherwise would be if memory serves. Then it was more about trying to protect a ram so someone could smash the brick walls. If you had to break away from the ram, then it was siege over. I know it was more of a meme post, but there was that one that someone had a backpack full of buckets of water (6 was max at the time) for that "maximum chase." Now, it's a troll belt full of flasks. Not much has changed in the general meta. Specific mechanics have, but not the overall strategies. it pretty much summarizes what I don't' like about pvp in haven.

But that is kind of pulling away from what the question was: what about the current combat system isn't liked. I'll add more to my above statement. You could actually have duels in the legacy system where the unexpected occurs because someone would use one of the trick actions and mess with the balance of the fight. There were options. Here, you're stuck with the loadout you took, and you don't have a lot of extra options because you are stuck with a 10 card hand: 4 'best' defenses, a couple of attacks, something to build IP, your maneuver(s), and one or two of some sort of "other" action. Decks can be tailored for specific opponents.